first dilucot

[Disburden]

First, I apologize to the original poster of this thread because things are way off topic and this isn't fair to you, I'm sorry this happened to your post.

Second its clear that people on this site, which I've enjoyed for over a year, have issues with someone I speak to on a regular basis. If I knew that this would make things here turn into a highschool cafeteria I wouldn't have said anything about liking the stone in the first place.

Namaste,

Nick

 

[jfdupuis]

I could not agree more with your statement Bart. I like SRP, but I pay little attention to some of its members..(no name needed) My very first honing setup was a Norton 4k/8k after being recommended that I buy it. I never ever had any real success with that stone. It's big, bulky, requires a lot of useless lapping and refreshing.

I would say that the dilucot method is not the easiest method, but the unicot is very easy to master.

 

[garyhaywood]

nick i take on advice from any one that offers it , including your mate that you talk to . i also took advice from him . in my experiance i go by what works for me. i am very satisfied with what my coticules deliver. i no you hav'nt had so much look with yours. i still like to try this that and the other . i have tryed most things including eschers . as you no i have another one on the way. i will try it and see what happens . this morning i tested 3 razors all dilucot edges. one finished on crox one finished on my ti rasoir pate and one as it was coticule edge. I tested all three razors and shaved a section at atime. the differance between pasted and not . there was none the coticule edge was as smooth and sharp as the pasted edges.

i tryed one razor by adding a thew laps on my barber hone the differance was none no improve mant no worse no better, infact i could well imagine a barber hone would be a great hone to use for maintaining razor. i also added 10k naniwa to same razor and there was minute differance still smooth but not coticule smooth . i still try differant things, and i like doing it. i have tryed eschers i will try escher again just see what happens.

you should take upthe free honing in the free honing service just to get a bench mark. you may like the edge you may not.

cheers gary

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Way Off Topic, and in fun only guys:

I have norton 4/8K, Chinese 400/1000 and a 1200
I have 4 Coticules
Pasted Strops
And a Thuringian
Also A Charnly Forest

Am I a Honemeister? Bwhahahaha

Just a joke

Best Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Disburden]

Thanks for the response, Gary, you're always a rational person to talk to in the forums. As you know, I have been using my coticule, bbw, coticule routine for some time now and I have gotten awesome results from it. I like using the BBW to hit a keenness limit easier, it is my preference and I like the bbw stones. I have had trouble with dilucot in the past, that's correct, because my coticule is very slow in water and very fast in slurry. As I was advised in the past by Bart himself, this does make it hard to hit the middle stages to add a sharpness to the razor difficult. This is why I just jump into my BBW with slurry, it is enjoyable for me and effective. I am glad you are willing to say in public you use and like other stones as well as collect them, it seems here some people are offended when someone expresses that, or advises other types of stones to people, which really is a shame.
I am also sorry that people here become so violently offended when I advise new honers to try nortons and things a like when they are trying to use a coticule for honing, I am only trying to help that person not be so frustrated as some of them are. I have never told these people that they shouldn't use one at all, I use mine! No one seems to notice that I have advised people many times this week to use their coticules with slurry, go to a BBW, and then hit the coticule again with water, which is something I learned through Bart two years ago. We seem to only cut and paste what makes our battles seem justified, which is very unfortunate lately. I feel a little ashamed of telling new people on SRP to look at this site in PMs several times this week to get help with their coticule honing because it seems people here can be rather unfriendly based on their opinions of your friends.

I am friends with someone a lot of you don't like, So what? I don't really care about your past internet battles with people. So does that mean I agree that only 2% of coticules are effective for razor honing? That I don't use a coticule because I think it's a waste of time? No, it doesn't, and I am sorry that past grudges through the internet with Straight Razor Place, Lynn, Sham, whoever else, have hurt some of so you much in the past that it has really effected your lives, but your past battles aren't my current ones. Move on, I am not on a crusade to take people away from your forum and your procedure to sharpen a razor for heck's sake.

nick i take on advice from any one that offers it , including your mate that you talk to . i also took advice from him . in my experiance i go by what works for me. i am very satisfied with what my coticules deliver. i no you hav'nt had so much look with yours. i still like to try this that and the other . i have tryed most things including eschers . as you no i have another one on the way. i will try it and see what happens . this morning i tested 3 razors all dilucot edges. one finished on crox one finished on my ti rasoir pate and one as it was coticule edge. I tested all three razors and shaved a section at atime. the differance between pasted and not . there was none the coticule edge was as smooth and sharp as the pasted edges.

i tryed one razor by adding a thew laps on my barber hone the differance was none no improve mant no worse no better, infact i could well imagine a barber hone would be a great hone to use for maintaining razor. i also added 10k naniwa to same razor and there was minute differance still smooth but not coticule smooth . i still try differant things, and i like doing it. i have tryed eschers i will try escher again just see what happens.

you should take upthe free honing in the free honing service just to get a bench mark. you may like the edge you may not.

cheers gary

 

[garyhaywood]

thats just it every one to their own methods. i actauly no a honmeister that is a fantastic restorer and he hones razors very well. i have brought many razors from him, in fact his name is bob keyes , you may no him. I no for a fact he hones on nothing but nortons and finishes on a 12k kitiyama thats it . his razors shave fine.i'll have to give the bbw a go and see how it goes

cheers gary

 

[Woodash]

...started using the Norton4K/8K because it was: A. a good hone, B. made in the US, C.readily available. I know I started on Coticule for very similar reasons: they had this age old reputation and they are mined in my country......But let's not digress. I am convinced that a very good edge can be achieved of the Norton8K. But getting the kind of keenness of any hone that allows for a nice shave requires the skill and practice many don't bother with.

...The one big difference, besides the fact that Coticules work different than the Norton4K/8K, is that my "one Coticule method" (the later Unicot), omitted the pasted finishing. That, and that only, makes Coticule honing more difficult....

Interesting perspective, Bart. I think one more thing to consider about why the Nortons may have caught on in certain circles is: D. As synthetics, they are consistent and predictable, and I guess that has it's advantages. For me personally, it seems kind of like having a boring (and/or ugly :scared: ) girlfriend. There is never any surprise, little thrill - and that whole thing is one reason why I suspect that we all gravitate toward the naturals. I say naturals because I make no excuses for having a particular fondness for the Jnats as well as the coticules. They're all (coticules, Jnats, etc.) like puzzles; like moving targets, and the game is ON each time you try a new one with a unique 'prize' to be discovered at the end.

...the "Coticules are difficult to master" statement.

Without jumping into the current shitstorm, I personally find use of this statement to be kind of disingenuous in the sense that it it seems odd to use coticules while simultaneously pushing people away from them (even as beginners). Am I 'violently offended'? I don't think so....: (OK - I just jumped into the shitstorm a little bit there...). OK - I'm out now.

...Let's repeat it one more time: learning razor sharpening is like learning how to ride a bike. I agree that Dilucot may be a bit of a Unicycle situation. But with Unicot available, it surely isn't more challenging than any other procedure with solid hones. They all demand a wobble free honing stroke. And the ability to "read" the edge.

In fairness, I actually see this more as having the skill to know how to ride a bike, but sometimes you are on a <7 kg road bike, and other times you may be riding in the dirt on some big, fat, knobby tired clunker. Maybe reading that edge is just a little different on each bike.

 

[Disburden]

I agree that the norton 4/8K combo is a boring tool to use as it isn't anything special. This is why I use my coticule and bbw MORE as of late than my Norton, but I am glad I own one and that I can use it when I feel I want to use it or I need it.

 

[BlueDun]

Nick,

it's sad to hear that that it is your impression that people here tend to viciously defend coticules as the one and only truth. Personally, I found it to be quite the opposite. Of course, since this site is mostly dedicated to coticules there will be solid arguments for these rocks based on long time experience that some folks around here have with this hones. You may find arguments that are sometimes also tinted a bit by personal engagement and passion which I think is acceptable as long as fairness prevails.
What I did and do like here is that members can bring up arguments as well as impressions and opinions (just like you did above, and thanks for that!) without being crucified for not repeating the mainstream voices. Personally, in this forum I did NEVER read statements that hones other than coticules are crap or not suitable for razor honing. Indeed, if you search around you will find multiple post where members state (just like Gary) that they use other hones too and also like them.
Of course, there will sometimes be the occasional line in a post that may catch you off-guard and bug you. But please do not condemn this site as a a whole by such occurrences - after all we are all just only human. Yet, thank you for stating your impression that omphaloskepsis (hanging around here for a while you will know that term ) may have sneaked in without warning and - even worse - without being noticed by oneself. I know that nobody who posted in this thread would want want this to happen. Stay with us please ... :thumbup: :thumbup:

Cheers
BlueDun

 

[Disburden]

Unfortunately, in my opinion, it seems like there is quite an Us Versus them mentality on both sides of the fence in different forums and it gets on my nerves quite often, it's immature. I know a lot of it has to do with past grudges with people before this forum even was created. All I did this morning was post that I was happy for someone getting a coticule from a layer I am interested in (since Gary got his a long while ago now), and then in jest mentioned having HAD. Five minutes later there are responses to what I said which made me feel attacked because I advise new honers on other sites to try using a Norton first and because I am friends with Sham.

I mean, seriously?

 

[Paul]

Nick,

I recommend reading for understanding. No one here says they don't like anyone. What we say is we would prefer that people not propagate the idea that coticules are hard, parroting the posts of others without any expertise or experience to justify those claims. You're the one that said they are "very difficult" and referenced "wasting time" on a coticule. You said that a coticule that will set a bevel is not going to be fit to finish a razor. This isn't a personal problem that I'm having with you or anyone else. It has nothing to do with personal things. It's about the information... Information that we (or at least I) feel is inaccurate.

No one is violently offended, no one cares whether you use or don't use your coticule, for that matter. For the record, I talked to Lynn two days ago on the phone, and we were texting after 10 pm last night. We're friends. I'm in the process of buying an Escher from Sham. We've been friends for years. We just disagree, and that's ok.

What's not ok, is acting like a victim when you get challenged because of the information you're disseminating and acting as if it's personal when that couldn't be further from the truth. At least not in my opinion.

Also, I challenge you to find the posts where any of us recommend coticules only to the full elimination of all others. If I said it, I can't recall it. In fact, I always try to be very careful to say they're my preference, but I'd never say they are the best. I've also said repeatedly that the differences aren't as great as people would have us think.

It is often very difficult to separate disagreements and arguments from the people, but there's absolutely nothing personal about anything I'm saying or have said. I do hope you'll see that. I for one try to be the most open to the possibility of me being wrong and consistently challenge even my most deeply held beliefs. I don't take disagreements personally, rather I take them as a path for finding better/more accurate information.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[Disburden]

In my opinion, it is very difficult to learn on a coticule alone instead of learning on a norton. I know you will not agree with me, that's okay. I just feel these simple points:

1) All you have to do is lap and soak a norton for 25 minutes. You can eat a sandwich while this happens, boom done.
2) You don't need to worry about slurry being too thick, too thin(is it 2% milk or 1% milk,etc) when you haven't even touched the razor to the hone yet. You just put it on it's 4K side up, spray it, and hone on it for 30 strokes, cut hair, good cut easily or should I do more strokes, simple? Cuts hair now easily? Flip it, move to 8K side, spray it. Hone on it until hair is cut and just falls away without sound or resistance mid length..To me that is easy. You can then get awesome shaves from the 8K, I did it for months without a paste. From my own experiences I was honing off a Norton in one day and getting shave ready razors out of antique store purchases. That was no where that easy for me when I got my coticule.
3) You don't have to figure out for a long time how to dilute your slurry to know if it's right for your stone. Should I have added one drop of water and then have done 30 strokes or should I have done 15 strokes and then added a drop of water, etc. To me all of these variables make learning how to hone on a coticule difficult when the ultimate goal is to get a shaving razor. These are my experiences, I am not parroting someone else, I shared numerous emails with Gary about this. Is there something wrong with doing things this way? No. To me it IS difficult though, I am sorry if I shouldn't tell anyone else that it is difficult, it is my opinion. Do I finish on other stones, yes I often do. Have I finished on my coticule? Yes, I have but it isn't as keen as I like it to be.

Does that mean I think using a Norton is better in general forever, no. Like I said I have been sharing PMs with a lot of new people with their new coticules and leading them here as well as trying to help them us their coticule. I wasn't trying to single you out about mentioning past arguments with people, I don't know your relationships with anyone, I apologize if I offended you and your relationships. I, simply put, just felt a little insulted by the responses I got this morning because I said I wanted another coticule. I am sorry but I feel like I shouldn't be "Challenged" like I have a sword and a shield in my hands because I said I like a rock.

Nick,

I recommend reading for understanding. No one here says they don't like anyone. What we say is we would prefer that people not propagate the idea that coticules are hard, parroting the posts of others without any expertise or experience to justify those claims. You're the one that said they are "very difficult" and referenced "wasting time" on a coticule. You said that a coticule that will set a bevel is not going to be fit to finish a razor. This isn't a personal problem that I'm having with you or anyone else. It has nothing to do with personal things. It's about the information... Information that we (or at least I) feel is inaccurate.

No one is violently offended, no one cares whether you use or don't use your coticule, for that matter. For the record, I talked to Lynn two days ago on the phone, and we were texting after 10 pm last night. We're friends. I'm in the process of buying an Escher from Sham. We've been friends for years. We just disagree, and that's ok.

What's not ok, is acting like a victim when you get challenged because of the information you're disseminating and acting as if it's personal when that couldn't be further from the truth. At least not in my opinion.

Also, I challenge you to find the posts where any of us recommend coticules only to the full elimination of all others. If I said it, I can't recall it. In fact, I always try to be very careful to say they're my preference, but I'd never say they are the best. I've also said repeatedly that the differences aren't as great as people would have us think.

It is often very difficult to separate disagreements and arguments from the people, but there's absolutely nothing personal about anything I'm saying or have said. I do hope you'll see that. I for one try to be the most open to the possibility of me being wrong and consistently challenge even my most deeply held beliefs. I don't take disagreements personally, rather I take them as a path for finding better/more accurate information.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[Bart]

Nick,

It is not me that has a problem with people liking, using and preferring other hones than the ones I like use and prefer.
You're going to have to search a long time to find a forum post made by me on B&B, SRP, or even right here on Coticule.be, that tells people what hone they should use. If someone who's using a Norton pops a question and I feel I have something to add, I will do just that. But never you will catch me telling the guy that his hone of choice is not suited for the job, when I know there are plenty of others successfully using that hone. For the same reason, I hardly ever advice to send a razor to a "honemeister" when someone asks how to hone a razor. That just isn't helpful and it doesn't even answer the question.
Your friend Sham, whom I do not consider my enemy by the way, has a long history of telling people they should not be using a Coticule. That is is good right, but then it is equally my good right to point out with argumentation that I don't agree.
The name of this website is Coticule.be. With such a name comes the obligation to keep the record straight about these hones. Of course I do not own that record, but I can only go with what I genuinely believe to be true. I never found much difference between the finishing of the stones. So that is what I keep telling. They work best in certain ways, hence that's what I keep spreading. And my experience with new guys visiting my home to learn tells me that Coticule aren't particularly more difficult than the next hone, so that's a notion that I keep battling. The notion. Not the people. What somebody thinks or believes about sharpening a piece of steel has zero influence on whether I consider a guy my friend or not.

Collecting hones. I just don't have collector's blood, but several of my friends have. Some guys collect music record, some collect WW-II relics, some collect straight razors. Their's one thing I noticed that all these serious collectors disgust: it's guys that hoard. I 'm sure that I don't need to explain the difference to you. A genuine collector would never refer to his hobby as an acquisition disorder, as he would find the lack of personal restraint that suggest, not only a disgrace for himself, but also for the objects he loves and studies.
On Coticule.be we welcome collectors and treat hoarders with compassion. I realize that offends the latter. But rather that than becoming a forum that goes along with a disorder that leads only to gear fetishism. If we were into selling as much Coticules as possible, I would probably not have any problem with that. But I have not started this place to promote Coticule sales, only to offer support to people who want to put theirs to good use.

Steve,

I think one more thing to consider about why the Nortons may have caught on in certain circles is: D. As synthetics, they are consistent and predictable, and I guess that has it's advantages.

Actually I never understood how a hone could be anything else than consistent. I mean it is the same hone each time you use it. Humans can be inconsistent in their ways, but a hone?
They are indeed less predictable, because they are made by a number of random natural events, which leads to variance. But my experience with testing the hones that are in the Vault, proves that the procedures for honing on them are generally applicable. So they're not that unpredictable. Some are slower than others, but that is not of such magnitude that it overrules other factors, such as the amount of convexity on a bevel, the width of that bevel, the length of the hone, how thin the blade of the razor, the abrasion resistance of the steel. And those are factors that alter with each sharpening job, while your Coticule will be the same as last time you used it.

Am I 'violently offended'? I don't think so....:

Of course no one is "violently offended". I don't know where Nick caught that. Paul and I were just teasing Nick a bit with his "Coticules are very difficult" statement on Badger&Blade.

But it lead to an interesting discussion about if and why Coticules are supposed to be more challenging to use.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Guest]

...the "Coticules are difficult to master" statement.

Without jumping into the current shitstorm, I personally find use of this statement to be kind of disingenuous in the sense that it it seems odd to use coticules while simultaneously pushing people away from them (even as beginners). Am I 'violently offended'? I don't think so....: (OK - I just jumped into the shitstorm a little bit there...). OK - I'm out now.

What shitstorm? A shitstorm requires personal involvement. We are just having a discussion.

Do we have personal histories, including experiences in shaving related online communities, that influence our views on things? Obviously, yes. Is that a bad thing? I think not. I think it is a good thing. We have all seen trends come and go. We have developed different methods and tastes, we use different tools and technologies. As far as I remember, this site was founded as a knowledge database about Coticules, with the forum as a place where discussions about Coticules can take place. Various sub forums were added as an afterthought, but at its heart, this is a site about Coticules, and it is the best source of information about these hones. It would not be what it is without the experiences of its members made elsewhere.

Are arguments a bad thing? I would say that depends on what your cultural background is. While living in the United States, I was quite taken aback with people's inability to cut to the chase and simply obliterate the problem. Because that is how many Germans operate (my nickname back in OH being "the pushy German"). This is, however, a truly international forum, and that is part of its charm. It feels much more like an academic discussion circle than a politically correct hen party. Yes, there is the occasional drama. But as far as I can see, no-one got personally attacked, yet. And that is all that matters to me. Because there is a subtle, yet decisive, difference between "I think your approach to be obtuse, and here is how I can prove it", and "I think you are an idiot". I certainly do not want the latter, but I most certainly want the latter to be possible. To take an example used previously in this thread: in the light of the well documented, and consistently repeatable successes of the vast majority of users here, "Less than 5% of all Coticules can be used to hone razors" is opinion that qualifies as not only easily falsifiable but also borderline idiotic. Does that make the person holding that opinion an idiot? Certainly not. I appreciate that not everyone will agree to this, but you should bear in mind that this is a socially accepted reasoning in my part of the world.

It is also, I believe, the reason why some of the writers in this thread seem to feel personally attacked or victimised. Let us all take a step back, re-read this thread from the beginning - it it should quickly become apparent that we all want the same thing (good results and fun while honing), and that most if not all of us own (and maybe use) other hones than just one Coticule (I happen to own a full set of Norton hones, and I dislike everything about them).

Can we go on with the Coticule show now?

Thanks!
Robin

 

[Paul]

Nick,

EDIT: I see Bart was typing when I was :

The responses this morning were intended as simply a friendly, joking dig because of the fact that you almost act apologetic for the difficulty of coticules on other fora.

The parroting comment was talking about the posts where you said a coticule that will set a bevel will not be suitable for finishing a razor.

No one is saying that nortons are no good. I think they are in fact very good. In fact, that's likely what I'd recommend for someone who wants to learn to "hone by numbers". However, I really feel that if someone takes a little bit of time, puts everything else away, and focuses on their coticule (assuming they have a good honing stroke and the ability to read or watch a youtube video for that matter), they will learn how to use their coticule with relatively little difficulty.

This is something that Lynn and I talked about just a couple of days ago. For guys like him who have to 12 razors to hone and 12 more right behind them and 12 more right behind them, etc., even I agree that coticules are a terrible choice. But for guys like me and 99% of the straight razor users out there who just want to take care of their own stuff, it's a very good option (not necessarily the best). Like I said earlier, maybe I need to start thinking more highly of myself and my ability to successfully use these stones. However, according to The University of Texas at Austin Hubris is a sign of low brain activity.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[Bart]

1) All you have to do is lap and soak a norton for 25 minutes. You can eat a sandwich while this happens, boom done.

Hmm. You don't need to soak a Coticule. But you don't need to worry about the surface glazing over either. And you don't need to lap the bananas out of a new Coticule to loose the initial grittiness, like often reported to be necessary on a new Norton 4K. Maybe a coincidence, but the only 4K I ever saw, had that grittiness, even though the owner already lapped 1mm into it.

2) You don't need to worry about slurry being too thick, too thin(is it 2% milk or 1% milk,etc) when you haven't even touched the razor to the hone yet. You just put it on it's 4K side up, spray it, and hone on it for 30 strokes, cut hair, good cut easily or should I do more strokes, simple? Cuts hair now easily? Flip it, move to 8K side, spray it. Hone on it until hair is cut and just falls away without sound or resistance mid length..To me that is easy. You can then get awesome shaves from the 8K, I did it for months without a paste. From my own experiences I was honing off a Norton in one day and getting shave ready razors out of antique store purchases. That was no where that easy for me when I got my Coticule.

It's easy enough to err on the thin side of slurry. The only downside is that it will be a bit slower. Which is good for practicing strokes. Even with thick slurry a Coticule still works. The edge won't be ruined. It just won't become equally keen.

3) You don't have to figure out for a long time how to dilute your slurry to know if it's right for your stone. Should I have added one drop of water and then have done 30 strokes or should I have done 15 strokes and then added a drop of water, etc. To me all of these variables make learning how to hone on a coticule difficult when the ultimate goal is to get a shaving razor.

Dilucot is not the only way to use a Coticule. It is the unicycle method, and many like it for the challenge. But you can do Unicot, which doesn't require the feel for the dilution strategy.

These are my experiences, I am not parroting someone else, I shared numerous emails with Gary about this. Is there something wrong with doing things this way? No. To me it IS difficult though, I am sorry if I shouldn't tell anyone else that it is difficult, it is my opinion. Do I finish on other stones, yes I often do. Have I finished on my coticule? Yes, I have but it isn't as keen as I like it to be.

That is perfectly possible. There are ways to make a razor keener. But I don't think using a Norton 4K/8K is one of them.
If sharpening razors is about getting maximum keenness, I suggest you should buy lapping film all the way up to 0.3 micron.
I have used it. Works like a charm. Not my cup to tea for shaving, but to each his own.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Guest]

In my opinion, it is very difficult to learn on a coticule alone instead of learning on a norton.

I happen to own Mexican Nortons. I never realised that I had to take off 2mm of the 4k and 1k off the others to get halfway decent results out of them. They dry out fast. Very fast. I have to constantly switch between them while trying not to cross pollute them when switching. They need to be re-lapped constantly, but you never quite know when exactly. Tape clogs them up. And you have to soak them 30 minutes prior to use. Simplicity? I don't think so. Consistency? I guess that depends on how much time you spend maintaining these hones, and whether they are old stock from the US or those Mexican knife sharpeners.

What strikes me as odd, though, is your next remark:

I know you will not agree with me, that's okay.

Well, that is mighty generous of you. Maybe even a bit condescending. In any event, however, it is an at creating a self fulfilling prophecy. But it won't work, because there is a serious logical flaw in your argumentation. Synthetic hones are more consistent across the entire line. But... how does affect the non-commercial user? Because I do not hone for money, or hone 50 razors per day, my hones do not "dish out". Therefore, this argument is purely academic, because one Coticule is as consistent as any one synthetic hone. Yes, Coticules vary, but unless you are interested in exactly that variance for research purposes that variance is of no importance.

I know that so called honemeisters will disagree, and that is my point exactly. It is like selling me an SUV because I might need its features. But I do not.

Regards,
Robin

 

[Disburden]

I was not trying to be condescending I was simply saying you may not agree with what I have to say but we're all here to sharpen razors so I'm fine with it. Like I said there is a lot of variables involved to learn the dilucot method, I have used the unicot method but I preferred not to use tape because it's an extra thing to remember so I use my BBW instead and then coticule water. To me, having to lap a norton when you get it to make it smooth really isn't a chore. You just lap it, it takes ten minutes, to me that doesn't make much of a difference. My Norton is completely smooth and I haven't spent a ton of time lapping it everyday to make it so, maybe I am just not looking into it so I haven't noticed. All I do when I use mine is put it in a pot with water and do something else for a half hour. I then just take it out, spray it and hone on it. When I flip sides I just wipe the razor on a towel. Still, to me, that is a lot easier than having to figure out slurry dilution steps while maintaining a stroke.

Now I will say this again though...I like using my coticule more.

In my opinion, it is very difficult to learn on a coticule alone instead of learning on a norton.

I happen to own Mexican Nortons. I never realised that I had to take off 2mm of the 4k and 1k off the others to get halfway decent results out of them. They dry out fast. Very fast. I have to constantly switch between them while trying not to cross pollute them when switching. They need to be re-lapped constantly, but you never quite know when exactly. Tape clogs them up. And you have to soak them 30 minutes prior to use. Simplicity? I don't think so. Consistency? I guess that depends on how much time you spend maintaining these hones, and whether they are old stock from the US or those Mexican knife sharpeners.

What strikes me as odd, though, is your next remark:

I know you will not agree with me, that's okay.

Well, that is mighty generous of you. Maybe even a bit condescending. In any event, however, it is an at creating a self fulfilling prophecy. But it won't work, because there is a serious logical flaw in your argumentation. Synthetic hones are more consistent across the entire line. But... how does affect the non-commercial user? Because I do not hone for money, or hone 50 razors per day, my hones do not "dish out". Therefore, this argument is purely academic, because one Coticule is as consistent as any one synthetic hone. Yes, Coticules vary, but unless you are interested in exactly that variance for research purposes that variance is of no importance.

I know that so called honemeisters will disagree, and that is my point exactly. It is like selling me an SUV because I might need its features. But I do not.

Regards,
Robin

 

[Woodash]

...the "Coticules are difficult to master" statement.

Without jumping into the current shitstorm, I personally find use of this statement to be kind of disingenuous in the sense that it it seems odd to use coticules while simultaneously pushing people away from them (even as beginners). Am I 'violently offended'? I don't think so....: (OK - I just jumped into the shitstorm a little bit there...). OK - I'm out now.

What shitstorm? A shitstorm requires personal involvement. We are just having a discussion.

You say tomato...

 

[BlueDun]

Can we go on with the Coticule show now?

Absolutely yes. And in order to do so, I would like to share some of my personal experience.
I've been shaving with straights for close than a year now. Having been a knife nut for along time I did have lots of hones at home already which made me hone my razors myself from the very first day. Now, this is a considerably shorter straights history than most of you guys have. But on the other hand, I'm still in the steep part of the learning curve and the memories of trying and failing are still fresh.

I started honing my razors on what I already had at home: A set of Naniwa Choseras and an SS 10k as finisher. Without trying to make myself shine I got very nice results off these hones almost immediately. That is, of course after reading a lot through forums and watching almost any available video on youtube. Now, after almost one year I still use this setup quite often and my skills with it have improved. Not dramatically though and I know today that my first results with these hones were quite soon up with the generally agreed on standards of razor "shave-readiness". In fact, I found and still do find this setup quite "easy" to work with. Not that they are completely foolproof but they somehow seem to lend hand to get 90% of their potential almost immediately. I do have to mention again though that I was not completey inexperienced in using water hones on steel blades. Maybe that kept me from making the common beginner mistakes and got me starting on a somewhat experienced level.

And then came the coticules. And to start with my point here: My personal impression is that coticules were in fact quite MORE DIFFICULT for me to use and they still are. Please hold the tomatoes and eggs a moment and let me explain.
When I got my first cotis I used them as finisher first in a traditional progression honing process. Not much "whoa" at that time and then I found coticule.be. So I read through the posts and the instructions and my first attempts honing razors on cotis alone were considerably more miserable than with my synthetics. Agreed, I had unicot down after a few more attempts but dilucot is a completely different story. Why? I think, because with this approach it is almost all about the method and the skills. And those take time do develop and such a learning process is a highly inconsistent process. One day it works and the other it doesn't. And in the beginning you usually have no darn clue why. Can be frustrating - right? To make it worse, all cotis - being of natural origin - are different. And slightly different versions of dilucot (and even unicot) they require in order to unleash their potential. So where are we: We have a truly brilliant and well investigated method that requires quite a bit fine motor skills, a good splash of sensoric perception and that all with a natural material that comes in variations of which you as a beginner not know much of.

As often, I do exaggerate here to make the point. But seriously, does it not really sound a little more easy if you can just go: Take the 1k, do 25 passes, take the 4k, do another 25 ... and so on and you'll get a decent edge. Looking at the issue from that perspective I do restate my above point: Yes, for me, the synthetics were easier! In fact, I still have uncertainties and hiccups with dilucot today and sometimes I just cannot get a result that satisfies me (and the emphasis is on the word "me" here). So I drop the darn thing and pull out the synthetics which will usually get me my result - although I have to sacrifice the coti edge for that.

So, my personal view of the thing is that coticules are not for the motorically impaired ( ). They do require a bit more personal engagement and the willingness to work on your skills more than you'd have to with some other hones. Does that make them more difficult? Not directly. Use dilucot and you'll get a darn good shave right away. Use a progression with synthetics and you will too. It's much more my impression that it is easy to get 90% of the potential of synthetics right away. For the remaining 10% you'll have to work a bit longer. On coticules I seem to get an average of 70% right away and have to work even more for the remaining 30%. And THAT is the difficult part. But it's also the fun part!

Cheers
BlueDun