Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal

[PA23-250]

Yeah, I know about that--I use a Coarse for that reason. Although if we allow the slurry to get thick, maybe some could still go through... There are a few (very shallow) scratches on my hone that weren't there when I got it... I'm really suspecting something in the way I make slurry is the culprit.

I do have a few old barber hones. Anybody tried using those for slurry? Are they hard enough not to "give themselves up" in the process?

EDIT: I tried the barber hones on a Norton 4k & they definitely were abraded (& cleaned, which was nice ), but probably wouldn't work. Just for fun, used the small DMT on the Norton & had similar gouges in it--just like my Kiita. The edges are jagged & abrading whatever stone I use it on. Figured out one problem (I suspect that was playing a big role in why my slurries weren't working--imparting all sorts of shite therein), but still no way to raise them...

Just shaved again on my Sheffield wedge & it felt a bit duller. Either the edge wasn't as good as I thought or... I'm hoping my hone still works. I couldn't sell it if I wanted to (which I don't, despite all this) since the kanji are (is?--not sure if that's singular or plural) completely gone.

Anybody know where I can get a small form honyama (that won't cost a fortune; this stone was a bit more than I could really spend on shaving stuff, but I decided to take the plunge.)?

ANOTHER EDIT: This time I used my D8C to make slurry--I just set it on top & using only the weight of the plate (actually a bit less), just moved it until I had slurry like in the video. Did 3 slurries on my spike (TPT before honing was good, but it wasn't terribly sharp) & got a perfect looking bevel--I had the benefit of sunlight this time. The final time, I used a mix of circles, x-strokes (a bit slower this time) & even did a few edge-trailing strokes every now & then. Honed until it was a sticky paste. Wiped the razor & it TPT felt good, but wouldn't "mow" leg hairs like I'm used to. Shaved arm hai well enough, but not great. Then I washed the blade & performance improved a bit. This time I figured @ least I hadn't destroyed the edge, so I could always do more if it wasn't quite there. Stropped 60/60 & checked again & I think it's ready for a shave test. Way too soon to declare outright victory, but @ least the edge isn't ruined like last time! In the mean time, keep the ideas flowing, gents! I definitely appreciate it!

 

[JimR]

OK, well, things are looking better there. It definitely sounds like there was something wrong in your earlier slurries--you really shouldn't feel any grittiness, it should be a smooth slick liquid.
Also, try making it just a TOUCH thinner--that "stickiness" sound a tad too thick, maybe,. Anyway, experimentation is good.

As for an Ogata Honzan, well, let me work on that. I might have something that will work...

 

[PA23-250]

Thanks for that, Jim!:thumbup:

I just checked (obsessively) w/ another mowing hair test & it didn't' feel so great. Same w/ shaving arm hairs. I bought the hone from Oldschool, so I don't think that's the problem, but have you ever come across a Kiita that wouldn't do the job on a razor? He said it was "extremely hard & slow cutting". Would that affect anything, do you think?

And when you refresh slurry, do you simply mean you add water or do you also raise a bit more? I re-rubbed each time w/ the spike, but kept it the same on the wedge. I know one other poster (on a Kiita) finishes on water & says that gives him the best edges...

Just looked @ your honing pics again--on the last pic, is that about when you stop? I've been going until it's practically dry (parts of the hone are & there's almost no volume). Maybe I'm going too far there?

 

[JimR]

Thanks for that, Jim!:thumbup:

I just checked (obsessively) w/ another mowing hair test & it didn't' feel so great. Same w/ shaving arm hairs. I bought the hone from Oldschool, so I don't think that's the problem, but have you ever come across a Kiita that wouldn't do the job on a razor? He said it was "extremely hard & slow cutting". Would that affect anything, do you think?

And when you refresh slurry, do you simply mean you add water or do you also raise a bit more? I re-rubbed each time w/ the spike, but kept it the same on the wedge. I know one other poster (on a Kiita) finishes on water & says that gives him the best edges...

Just looked @ your honing pics again--on the last pic, is that about when you stop? I've been going until it's practically dry (parts of the hone are & there's almost no volume). Maybe I'm going too far there?

I have not used that many hones. So far, only two honzan and two Maruoyama hones. Don't start doubting the hone, give it some time.

as for refreshing, you remake the slurry. You're looking to release new particles to continue the actual honing before the final polish.

As for when to stop...

How long does it take for your hone to dry out? is it pretty fast? You need to keep a little water in the mix to let the slurry move around well. If it's too dry before it starts to break down, it might be too rough. But again, try some experiments with water and slurry.

And listen, I know right now you feel discouraged. Just trust the hone, and trust yourself. Don't worry. When I was failing with my hone, I was getting extremely down on it, and that led me to frustration and stress, which totally threw off my honing. Relax. Just hone.

Like my barber taught me, hone happy. If you're not happy, do something that DOES make you happy, then come back and just hone. If you fail, that's ok, what's the worst that could happen? Heck, failure is the best teacher--thinkn of it as an opportunity to try something different. Try your barber hone. Try just water. Hell, try it dry! You never know what will happen. But remember, you will succeed eventually.


Just hone.

 

[PA23-250]

It starts to thicken between 3-5 minutes, usually. Is that when it would start breaking down? It's kind of hard to see on mine--the slurry is a pretty strong yellow-orange color. If I look real closely, it might be tinged w/ grey later, but it can be hard to see.

On one razor, when it was getting thick, the razor was sort of sticking (stopping & starting a little bit). I take it that's too thick? The razor might have been skipping a (tiny) bit when I was using half-dried slurry.

EDIT: tried the W&B w/ a lighter slurry this time--could definitely see a huge difference in darkening--it was subtle, but noticeable. I gave it I think 4 or 5 slurries, coming off sooner than previously--it was still definitely liquid. HHT didn't do anything (but my recent hair sample collection could have been off), mowing hair was better than previous... TPT is definitely better. Will definitely test tomorrow.

More editing: Just had an idea--thinking that slurry on my stone (pure Kiita in this case) needs to be a bit thinner than on yours. I only noticed slurry darkening when it was thinner--if I had it as thick as in the pics, it wouldn't really. I'm thinking that the particles @ that point are too numerous to effectively break each other down & the hone then is just polishing. Plus, @ that level of fineness, I might have been running into slurry dulling--effectively trying to polish w/ too coarse a slurry and polishing too soon i.e. before everything was cut properly.

 

[jeffus]

Wow, so happy I found this thread today. Thanks for all the info folks! I recently just purchased a Nakayama Kiita from O_S and a Vintage Escher from gugi. I sent them over to Sham to test out and am looking forward to getting them back, but he is under a huge snow/ice storm right now and can't get to the post.

Here is the Kiita:

Sham was unable to get a sharp enough edge off the Kiita, but he said it was very very smooth.

He said that my Escher is the fastest cutting Escher he has ever seen, but does not give a smooth shave.

So I need to find how to combine the two! I am hoping that the information in this thread will help me achieve something wonderful.

Cheers,
jeff

 

[PA23-250]

Thinner slurry is definitely removing more metal--notable darkening. Tested the spike after 2 rounds (before any real polishing) & the edge is comparable to that of a Norton 4k. Not sure if that's good or bad. Ended up breaking out the coticule just to finish the job (I don't have a single shave-ready razor right now), so didn't get to test.

Once the slurry darkens & thickens (about where I'd refresh), it takes a lot longer to thicken any more. Is that where the thing actually gets sharp (shaving sharp) or should it be before that? If yes, then I might have a problem...

 

[JimR]

Thinner slurry is definitely removing more metal--notable darkening. Tested the spike after 2 rounds (before any real polishing) & the edge is comparable to that of a Norton 4k. Not sure if that's good or bad. Ended up breaking out the coticule just to finish the job (I don't have a single shave-ready razor right now), so didn't get to test.

Once the slurry darkens & thickens (about where I'd refresh), it takes a lot longer to thicken any more. Is that where the thing actually gets sharp (shaving sharp) or should it be before that? If yes, then I might have a problem...

Ok, it sounds like you're getting to know your stone. One thing to remember, this edge will be very very even--it's not all sawtoothed like an artifical stone, so if it feels like a 4K edge, it could very well be shaving like an 8K.

As for when the sharpening happens, it happens ALL THE TIME. It's a continuum, not a stairstep process like on an artifical setup or even (Bart forgive me) like a coticule with Dilucot (i.e. it changes with each addition of water). It's changing with every stroke. That's why it's important to learn to balance the slurry long enough at the initial stage, because soon you're out of it and getting into more refinement.

Jeffus, welcome aboard. Good luck with your hones! Although with an Escher and a Kiita, you don't have complimentary hones, you have two different options at doing the same thing.

 

[yohannrjm]

Hello! My first post on these forums.

Thanks for starting this thread, Jim. I've just received a nice 9" x 3" Asagi, and was wondering what to do next when someone pointed me to your thread here. I've had experience honing on synthetics, and some naturals, but never a Japanese natural hone.

I got the hone without a matching slurry stone, though it did come with a Mejiro Nagura.

I tried honing a W&B 13/16" half-hollow (that already cut hair) with slurry from the nagura, and promptly dulled it. A little research confirmed my observation that the slurry from the nagura was too coarse. However, with just plain water I wasn't making any headway. So I went down to a DMT D8EE and then came back to the Asagi....not much luck there either. So I gave up and went with my 1 micron and 0.3 micron lapping film, and got a great edge.

I then tried honing a Gotta 120 11/16" full-hollow that was already shave sharp - but the edge was not the most comfortable. I skipped the nagura and just honed with water on the Asagi. It took a while but I got a really comfortable, sharp edge off the hone (it did get hazy too).

I tried another W&B full-hollow with just water and again the edge wasn't that great.

That was when I was made aware of your thread here. I picked up a few pointers on honing using these stones, and went back to the W&B and managed to get a really nice smooth comfortable edge. This was without any more 'slurry' than the razor raised itself.

I don't want to use a DMT to raise a slurry on this hone, but I was wondering if a Spyderco Fine would do the trick. It's supposed to be about 3 micron grit, I think. I'll try that and report back later.

 

[jeffus]

Jeffus, welcome aboard. Good luck with your hones! Although with an Escher and a Kiita, you don't have complimentary hones, you have two different options at doing the same thing.

Thanks Jim. Your statement pretty much matches what Sham implied. He said that I can't go to the Kiita after the Escher, for then it would dull the edge (he always uses slurry). I've tried the Kiita with just water, but did not like the feel of that at all - strange tugging during the strokes, not smooth like my coti with water.

I'll play around with the Kiita following the info in this thread, but if I can't figure it out I may just sell it. I don't like keeping stuff around that I don't use.

How about this: Escher with slurry to get that extra sharpness, then the coti with water to smooth it out?

jeff

 

[Paul]

I'm not being sarcastic, but I was wondering why wouldn't you just use the Coticule

It gets plenty keen and smooth.

 

[Bart]

I'm not being sarcastic, but I was wondering why wouldn't you just use the Coticule

It gets plenty keen and smooth.

Paul, I wholeheartedly agree. But let's not start the never-ending "which hone delivers best" discussion in this thread. The thread focuses on getting the best of the Japanese Natural hones. What Eshers and Coticules are capable of is irrelevant here.
Let's keep this already long thread uncluttered and take a comparative discussion between hones to a separate thread (if you wish to start one).

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[PA23-250]

Jeff, did Sham use slurry on the Kiita or no?


UPDATE: just shaved w/ the W&B--was smooth enough, but gave loads of irritation on the neck (didn't want to grab hairs). Felt like it needed a touchup and definitely not a close shave. Face is pretty red now. I don't want to sidetrack the discussion here, but so far I've found this (with my hone): on water, it's harsh on my skin & not as close as a coticule--both coming off a serviceable Norton 8k edge. On slurry, I'm still trying to figure this thing out.

Further update. Face has settled down & shave wasn't quite as bad as I originally thought, but it certainly wasn't perfect--left me plenty frustrated @ the time, though. It's sort of a problem blade (I barely managed that good on a coticule w/ that thing), but still... I'm thinking @ least 5 more slurries before final polishing are in order. If I had a mejiro I might even try that. Might be quicker. Or a botan, just for fun. Jim, do you know anyone who sells good specimens of those--including honyama?

 

[jeffus]

Jeff, did Sham use slurry on the Kiita or no? It seems like Jim was saying that not all Jnats perform well on water; some need slurry.

Yes, he used slurry on the Kiita. He also tried slurry diluted down to water (dilucot). But I do not believe he tried renewing the slurry, which is the first thing I will try once I get it back.

O_S said it has moderate cutting speed.

 

[Paul]

Paul, I wholeheartedly agree. But let's not start the never-ending "which hone delivers best" discussion in this thread. The thread focuses on getting the best of the Japanese Natural hones. What Eshers and Coticules are capable of is irrelevant here.
Let's keep this already long thread uncluttered and take a comparative discussion between hones to a separate thread (if you wish to start one).

Kind regards,
Bart.

My apologies. I have no interest in the which is better discussion in general, but I was just confused why he might want to use 2 finishing stones. I'd like to see him master the Kiita that he has, personally. However his post seemed to indicate that he had given up on that stone.

Again, I certainly don't want to detract from JimR's fine thread here. FWIW, most of my Coticules deliver the best edges talk is tongue-in-cheek. I personally prefer them, but if pressed, I certainly wouldn't really debate that.

 

[jeffus]

I was just confused why he might want to use 2 finishing stones. I'd like to see him master the Kiita that he has, personally. However his post seemed to indicate that he had given up on that stone.

Sham had given up on my Kiita, while I was looking for ways to work with it, such as by following the information in this wonderful journal by Jim. You must be referring to my stated desire to sell said stone if I can't master it. Or I could loan it to Jim to see if he could figure it out if I fail. If it is okay I could post my findings of my Kiita here as well, or I could start my own thread.

Sham had also given up on my Escher, thus my question at the end of my post which started the hijacking of this thread (sorry about that).

regards

 

[Bart]

My apologies.

There's no need. I was just trying to put out a fire before it started.:

I was just confused why he might want to use 2 finishing stones. I'd like to see him master the Kiita that he has, personally.

Indeed. It takes at least a few dozens of razors to truly figure out a hone. I'm very sure that counts as much for a Honzan (is that the correct term, Jim?) as for a Coticule. When I assess the Coticules in the Vault, I often spend over an hour to do a Dilucot that takes me less than 15 minutes once I've learned to "read" that particular specimen. And, in all modesty, I know how, where and what to look for. Honing is a humble task. In that respect, I like Jim's closing line: "Just hone". Don't think or second-guess, but do observe. Focus on the perfection of your motion. Hone till your shoulders hurt. I'm sure each and every guy who knows the art we support on this forum (Garry, Ray, Smythe, Jim, Paul, Tim, and a bunch of others) very much know what I mean with 'till your shoulders" hurt. Just hone. One day, out of the blue, one edge will be perfect. Bold failures, so-so edges, nearly there edges, and others will follow. But eventually you'll repeat that first perfection. Your results will slowly gain consistency. And you'll realize that hones are never inconsistent. Humans are.

Those who aren't prepared to face the mild affliction of that path, can go out and setup of synthetic hones, follow it with some stroking in the margin on the priceless Honzan, and eventually settle for 0.5 micron diamond on a strop. I'm sure that works easy and well.

Allow me to present a picture of a hand planed tabletop. No sandpaper, no different grits. Just one well-tuned smoothing plane. And capable hands (this is not my work, source:http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Handplanes.aspx) All it needs is some oil.

If you don't see the beauty of that, you might want to buy the synthetic setup after all.

This post is not written with anyone in mind. These are just some random thoughts of mine about traditional razor sharpening.
By the way: the shoulder muscles adapt over time.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[PA23-250]

Another question: do you know of any circumstance where you would use any pressure on these things? I tried w/ my SRP TI (another problem blade) after the D8E & w/ a bit of pressure & using half-strokes, I could see the steel come off! Probably was using too much, though. Bevel looks partly sandblasted (deep scratches on the spine are almost gone), but it now won't shave arm hair. Use less pressure, probably?

Also, is there a certain feel I should look out for--when it's ready to let the slurry break down? So far, I think I've been letting it polish too early. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was slurry dulling. Maybe a Norton edge takes a bit more time to reset on slurry? Or maybe this stone doesn't like the DMT for slurry (comes off in chunks instead of indivudual grains)?

I'm thinking this is like doing a dilucot--the edge has to be within reach of the coticule w/ water to continue refining or else nothing happens. Same w/ letting the slurry break down on these. My problem, I think is getting there. If I can solve that, I might be onto something.

 

[JimR]

Oh, goodness, a lot going on in this thread.

OK, Let's start with Yohann.

Yeah, REAL Nagura are for fast, hard honing. Taking out chips and damaged edges, rounded bevels etc. As fof using a Spyderco, I have no idea. It's jus tone of those things you have to try...and please let us know! More data=more fun.

Erik, Bart speaks wisdom: every razor you hone, every failure and success, gets you closer to your hone. It sounds to me like you've gotten to the honing point, and not just need more time on the polishing. 5 more slurries sounds like too much, I think you're at the point where more slurries will start being counterproductive. This is one thing where you might want to try pushing the stone's limits--hone until the slurry is completely dry, then add a drop of water and do some very light passes, see how that works.

Also, if it's a problem blade, you might want to consider another razor for learning the hone on. I honestly think that the only way to learn to use a hone like this is to let the hone itself teach you. I was lucky in that my teacher had used the same hones for decades, so that knowledge was already there.

As for who is selling Nagura, I know So Yamashita has some, and I think aframestokyo,com does as well. If you can't find them in the US, email me.

Honzan are less readily available, but I MIGHT have found a good alternative. I'm testing it now, but I should have some news in the next day or two.

Jeffus, sorry to hear about your troubles. Don't give up on the stone yet. If you want, I'd be happy to try it with my techniques but remember that I live in Japan, so shipping may be prohibitive.

Bart, yes, Honzan is the correct term. Honyama, Motoyama, honzan, they are all alternative pronunciations of the same characters (ain't Japanese fun?) but the one I see most is Honzan. These are the toprank hones from the east side of Kyoto--the so-called "Higashimono". "Nishimono", or "western things", are from west of Kyoto and are very nearly as good, but not exactly, while being much less sought after. But I digress.

Your description of honing certainly mirrors my experience. I'm gaining some consistency, finally, but the sore shoulders (and fingers--I hold my smaller hones in my hands now) are a constant reminder of my amateur status. But it is certainly a fun ride, getting out of the depths of ignorance!

 

[PA23-250]

Oooo, a Honzan substitute!:thumbup: Do let us know!B)

Aframestokyo has Botan & Mejiro, but they're out right now.

I'll definitely try that (drying). If it's still not quite where I want it, you think just 1 more slurry, again allowed to break down & dry tried in increments (1 slurry per try) or just keep bringing the old one back to life?