What's New?
ShavingUniverse.com

Register a free account now!

If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.

Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal

Jim: I think I'm going to try just that w/ a Thuringian I have on loan from my barber (I'm honing for mine as well!:) ). Should definitely be a fun experiment.:thumbup: The potato crisp theory sounds very plausible/promising. I definitely look forward to trying it out w/ mine when I get it! Dish detergent?:scared: Is he bloody serious!? I'd be much more worried about that than a few trace minerals from my very clean (& soft) tap water...:D
 
Forgot to mention: if you're only using water w/ particles just embedded in the surface, they probably won't have a chance to break down as readily either. Thus the edge should be more polished when slurry is used.

Actually this hone powder & bird droppings strop paste business reminds me of a Red Dwarf scene:

[Rimmer making fun of Lister's penchant for mail order junk] "Please rush me my portable walrus polishing kit! 4 super brushes that will clean even the trickiest of seabound mammals. Yes, I am over 18 although my IQ isn't!" :D
 
Disregarding the rest of it, using dish detergent works for knives, to help lubricate the stone, and hold the slurry particles, hone particles, and metal bits in suspension as they accumulate. It doesn't take much, a few drops on the rock and then dilution with water before applying slurry stone.. to see a change in the viscosity and the 'draw' into the stone. It lessens. It allows a bit more pressure without gouging, longer honing sessions, more even slurry viscosity throughout the cycle. :)

I'd suspect if it had any utility with razors, it'd be on uneven or coarse stones, to smooth out the honing stroke, or while grinding away metal during repair. It would diminish the feedback necessary to develope a fine edge, if my guess is correct, and be contraindicated for finish honing.

I'm recently being forced to reexamine my non-coticule stones to find out what soaking does to each one FOR SURE.. as my presumptions weren't based on facts.
Figuring out 'coticules are different' has been very useful. Using both japanese and european, it's easy to overlook potentials. I'm very glad I didn't buy a shave ready razor.
 
Using dish soap on a hone is totally plausible! For example, DTM recommends it with the continuous diamond plates that I have, the fine and extra, extra fine.

Speaking of DMTs, I picked up a DMT 1200 2 by 3 inch for a slurry stone. Works great and ran my 15 bucks. We should chip in and get one for JimR for all the insight hes given us! :lol:
 
Oh, on DMTs, dish soap works great. I always use it on those. I was talking only about Jnats--don't think I'd ever want to use any soap on mine when I get it.

For slurry stones, I think DMT makes a small one that folds out of a plastic housing. Not sure if the plastic gets totally out of the way, though. I think it's called the "mini-sharp".
 
Yes, using diluted detergent hasn't nearly the effect on coticule performance as it does more porous stones.. but JNats aren't the only porous stones out there. I'm going to have to reexamine what happens precisely to every rock now, using slurry,water, and diluted detergent at various concentrations. At least enough to get some benchmarks as to when it makes significant difference.

I'm still convinced that mixing and matching rocks makes sense; but becoming fully informed is larger than I'd estimated. I wish I could get these rocks I'm supposedly evaluating amongst ya'll to do a proper job of it. I'll ask him.
 
Gents, I have nothing against using detergent on a stone--I've heard of that plenty of times. But it's the idea of using distilled water to prevent any contaminants in your water from damaging your stone, and then ADDING contaminants...it struck me as rather silly, to be honest.
 
might not be silly in an area with hard water. i live in one now that leaves a mineral film in pots, and on glasses. A place prone to kidney stones, if you drink much tap water. I can see the 'rule' escaping the reason for it, and distilled being used when it's unnecessary. Adding detergent to float off swarf better, and to stabilize the slurry consistency, isn't the same thing as soaking a stone in mineral-rich water repeatedly and allowing it to dry.

it does sort of sound prissy. but it still might make sense some places. It matters somewhat more at the moment, because the enlightenment on how slurry acts differently on coticules and Jnats was a blinding flash and a deafening report. SO what IF I've been treating my Jnats like coticules with this SOAKING thing, and merely disguising it by also using the detergent? MAYBE I ought to go back to soaking all my JNats by default, instead of NOT by default, like coticules. hmm. I bet at least one or two rocks will act very differently.
 
mitchshrader said:
might not be silly in an area with hard water. i live in one now that leaves a mineral film in pots, and on glasses. A place prone to kidney stones, if you drink much tap water. I can see the 'rule' escaping the reason for it, and distilled being used when it's unnecessary. Adding detergent to float off swarf better, and to stabilize the slurry consistency, isn't the same thing as soaking a stone in mineral-rich water repeatedly and allowing it to dry.

it does sort of sound prissy. but it still might make sense some places. It matters somewhat more at the moment, because the enlightenment on how slurry acts differently on coticules and Jnats was a blinding flash and a deafening report. SO what IF I've been treating my Jnats like coticules with this SOAKING thing, and merely disguising it by also using the detergent? MAYBE I ought to go back to soaking all my JNats by default, instead of NOT by default, like coticules. hmm. I bet at least one or two rocks will act very differently.
Click to expand...

No! Don't soak your Japanese naturals.
Never.

If they're at all soft, they'll start to dissolve...
 
I'd be more prone to agree with you Without Exception if I hadn't just run into a hone that demanded soaking, and am fairly convinced SOME hones of Japanese origin require it to perform optimally.

A minority, ok.. and don't leave them soaking indefinitely, ok.. and it WILL degrade them to some degree and worse if you're careless.. ok. But if you have to soak it to make it work, you have to.

Otherwise I'll agree with you emphatically and applaud. I'm thinking of a particular hard polishing hone that's cut 'across the grain' , so you're looking edge on at the layers in the main surface. It's been hard to get a slurry even with diamond plate. It's the hardest Japanese stone I own..
 
Okay that's it. Stop the nonsense please. You're pissing off the bartender. A lot of people are following JimR's excellent thread. Not all have the knowledge to differentiate between valid information and utter nonsense. I have better things to do than cleaning up your act. If you want to be an expert, please gather the expertise first.


FIRSTLY: Natural rock is nothing more than a huge pile of minerals, densely packed together. A few minerals more or less that came with the honing water, won't make a single shred of difference. It is complete utter nonsense to state otherwise. We're not boiling water in a kettle. Limescale is a non-issue here. We're abrading both steel ànd the surface of our hone. The fluid will be packed with more minerals and metal contaminants than you'd ever find in tap water.

SECONDLY: Only hones that are so porous that they suck up any fluid poured onto them, need to be saturated with water before use. Most natural hones don't need soaking. Layered rocks might separate when soaked. Distilled water could easily help that process, rather than prevent it, by the physical laws of osmosis.

THIRDLY: a diamond hone will easily raise slurry on any hone. Even if that other hone was a huge diamond itself.


Thank you.
Bart.
 
Now that wont do, that wont do at all.
I have never seen Sir Bart Pissed off, or a thread on here that had to be moderated, lets not make a habit of this eh.
 
I'm sorry for bringing negativity into your house, Bart.

I'll be more careful from now on.
 
Jim,

From my viewpoint, you have honored us with your thread, and there is nothing to blame you for.
I think fine gentlemen like yourself have the right to start a thread here about honing ideas, how controversial they may or may not be. You explained your journey, disclosed your sources, applied your own logic and presented your facts with caution and deliberation. We all learned. I learned, and I took pride in that fact that you've run the thread here, on Coticule.be, of all places, even though I did nothing to earn such honor.

I'm not upset at anyone, that bartender-sentence was only a tongue in cheek reference to the forum rules. But I will protect the threads of guys like you. This thread must not stray off in chaos and untrue statements, that have nothing to do with the valuable information your presented. If anyone thinks this board is a playground for "playing mr. Expert" by talking bullshit, expect to "get the lid on your nose", as we say here in Belgium. No hard feelings after that. (at least not from my side).

Within a few days, when everyone involved had a chance to think about this, I will contact you in private to discuss which posts need to be removed in order to bring the thread back on its original course. (including my last 2 posts)

In the mean time, don't worry about a thing.;)

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
I think ive seen this in a thread somewhere - is it to protect damaged porous layered rocks from further damage?
 
PA23-250 said:
Jim, have you or your barber lacquered any of your stones & do you recommend I do mine?
Click to expand...

My barber didn't lacquer his. I asked some hone experts over here about it, and the general consensus is that this is to protect stones that are used outside--carpenters do a lot of their honing outside, and any residual water in the stone might freeze in winter and split the stone, as water expands when it freezes.

I've also heard in situations where the stone is soft, the lacquer can help hold it together.

I lacquered some stones I got recently, but only because there were stamps on the sides that I wanted to protect.

So it's up to you, really. It's not necessary, but it can't hurt.
 
Bart, the only diamond hone i use on rocks is an 8000 grit plate of some age, that lays beside my sink, and the rock in question won't make a heavy enough slurry rubbed on it to use in sharpening. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it's more difficult than any other rock I own.

The rest of my comments were speculative, trying to figure why silly rules got made, and that they perhaps weren't silly for the place they orginated.

If you take those as denigrating the efforts and research into stones, I misspoke. You have my assurance I am curious and claim no expertese in japanese stones, am attempting to learn from those who know more.

I apologize for conversation you seem to feel excessively trivial. It isn't required here.
 
Just bought my Kiita from Old_School!:thumbup:

Thinking a DMT Minisharp (C) should work for slurry. Almost curious to see just what the edge is off water 1st before doing it the traditional way.

Another question for Jim: do you use a microscope to check the color of the bevel to know when it's done or just the naked eye?
 
PA23-250 said:
Just bought my Kiita from Old_School!:thumbup:

Thinking a DMT Minisharp (C) should work for slurry. Almost curious to see just what the edge is off water 1st before doing it the traditional way.

Another question for Jim: do you use a microscope to check the color of the bevel to know when it's done or just the naked eye?
Click to expand...

Congratulations! I hope it gives you smooth edges.

I don't use the mic on my Japanese honing, I eyeball it and use my arm hair (for me, it's usually a good indicator of the shave...not always, but usually).

The color you are looking for is an EVEN (I can't stress that enough--it must be completely uniform) whitish haze across the length of the bevel AND the spine. If one place seems shinier than the rest, then you have an uneven stroke and it will most likely not be the best edge you can get. It's much like having a built-in marker test...

One thing I don't feel confident saying is just HOW white it should be. With my stones it's a very deep white, no shine at all, but with yours it might be less/more so. Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top