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Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal
- Thread starter JimR
- Start Date
jonnyangel
Active Member
I have a Nagura and a DMT. The Nagura is about a 6-8k level and the DMT made slurry is much finer with break down. I would say about a 30K level.
From JimR my understanding is that you would have three slurry stones (Coarse, Medium, and Fine) with one single very fine, hard hone. The slurry stone changes the coarseness of the slurry. This is the traditional method of honing with a J-Nat from my understanding. If you are only using the Kiita for finishing then a DMT would be fine. If you are using the Kiita as a honing method you would need slurry stone or stones.
From JimR my understanding is that you would have three slurry stones (Coarse, Medium, and Fine) with one single very fine, hard hone. The slurry stone changes the coarseness of the slurry. This is the traditional method of honing with a J-Nat from my understanding. If you are only using the Kiita for finishing then a DMT would be fine. If you are using the Kiita as a honing method you would need slurry stone or stones.
Bart
Well-Known Member
I can't speak for Jim, but on my Nakayama, it takes only about 20 swipes, performed with some pressure, to wipe out the pattern of my DMT-F (which is 600 grit). So an DMT-E (at 1200 grit) would vanish even faster.PA23-250 said:Another question for ye, Jim: since the bevel & the spine have to be even, how long do you think it would take to wipe out D8E scratch marks if I went straight from that? I reckon more than 3 slurries.
Problem is the slurry (on mine) does introduce a dulling barrier, as long as it is not broken down during honing. Hence I need to do more laps, just to allow the slurry to break into smaller fragments. I have been thinking to brake down the slurry by rubbing with a steel plate, just out of curiosity for doing that experiment.
The few trials with my new insights (thanks to Jim), were all done on razors that were just dull from good use, but not heavily convexed, corroded or damaged. I didn't need more than to raise one slurry and refresh it one more time by some additional rubbing with a DMT-C. After that I just allowed it to break down, by honing with very light pressure till it completely dried. Then brought it back to consistency with a few drops of water and finished the edge with about 50 laps.
Let's see if Jim can confirm any of this.:-/
Bart.
JimR
Well-Known Member
Gentlemen, sorry I've been out of touch. Things tend to get in the way!
So, let's see here: Jonny, that's exactly right, except for a small nomenclature issue.
There are two stones that we are talking about--Nagura and Slurry stones. They are different animals--Nagura are a special kind of stone from a particular mine. They are divided into many types, and I'll get into that more soon, I promise.
Nagura are used for rough/medium honing--taking out chips, rebeveling, etc. These are made of a different grit than the honzan, and they DON'T break down as smoothly as the honzan.
Slurry stones, which in this case means a small piece of "honzan", are used to finish/refine the edge. This is the slurry that breaks down finer and finer, and so you can use a diamond plate instead.
As for taking out the scratches, I really can't say. I've never tried it--but I guess it would depend on the thickness of your slurry, the hardness of your steel, and your pressure, although you shouldn't be using much.
One thing I would recommend is, if you're coming off of a rough diamond stone, I would give it a round or two MORE than you think it needs, because the deep scratches from the Diamonds would lead to some sawteeth, which is what we want to avoid on these edges. And you don't need to worry about doing it too much, unless your stone is really, REALLY thin.
Bart, I can't deny or confirm--all I can say is, as I understand it, the more rounds of slurry you give the razor, the "purer" the edge will be. My goal at this point is to make 100% honzan edges--no residual scratches from other hones. According to the guys here, the best way to do that is to use natural honing BEFORE the finish, as well. So Nagura, of if you've got serious trouble an Aoto or Iyoto.
Your experience with the "dulling barrier" and the refreshing edges is pretty much in line with what I have experienced, though I'll be honest-I don't do ANY tests until after the 2nd slurry round any more.
I hope this helps!
So, let's see here: Jonny, that's exactly right, except for a small nomenclature issue.
There are two stones that we are talking about--Nagura and Slurry stones. They are different animals--Nagura are a special kind of stone from a particular mine. They are divided into many types, and I'll get into that more soon, I promise.
Nagura are used for rough/medium honing--taking out chips, rebeveling, etc. These are made of a different grit than the honzan, and they DON'T break down as smoothly as the honzan.
Slurry stones, which in this case means a small piece of "honzan", are used to finish/refine the edge. This is the slurry that breaks down finer and finer, and so you can use a diamond plate instead.
As for taking out the scratches, I really can't say. I've never tried it--but I guess it would depend on the thickness of your slurry, the hardness of your steel, and your pressure, although you shouldn't be using much.
One thing I would recommend is, if you're coming off of a rough diamond stone, I would give it a round or two MORE than you think it needs, because the deep scratches from the Diamonds would lead to some sawteeth, which is what we want to avoid on these edges. And you don't need to worry about doing it too much, unless your stone is really, REALLY thin.
Bart, I can't deny or confirm--all I can say is, as I understand it, the more rounds of slurry you give the razor, the "purer" the edge will be. My goal at this point is to make 100% honzan edges--no residual scratches from other hones. According to the guys here, the best way to do that is to use natural honing BEFORE the finish, as well. So Nagura, of if you've got serious trouble an Aoto or Iyoto.
Your experience with the "dulling barrier" and the refreshing edges is pretty much in line with what I have experienced, though I'll be honest-I don't do ANY tests until after the 2nd slurry round any more.
I hope this helps!
I just thought of another way, based on your account of sharpening that really hard razor--slurry, diluted down to water on the Norton. Not sure if it would be even worth it to go to the 8k then or just hit the Nakayama...
Any other pitfalls to watch out for? (Stone should arrive tomorrow, but probably won't be able to pick up the DMT until later this week.)
Any other pitfalls to watch out for? (Stone should arrive tomorrow, but probably won't be able to pick up the DMT until later this week.)
JimR
Well-Known Member
PA23-250 said:
All I can say is, try it. Why not? This is all about experimenting and trying to see what works. I don't have nortons, so I can't tell you if it works or not. I can tell you that honing with slurry in my Naniwas has produced some nice results...And I reckon it can't hurt, as long as you're careful with the razor.
Enjoy!
Hone arrived today, but can't pick up DMT until Thurs. Tried w/ just water after a refresh on the Norton just to see what I'd get. Finish was slightly hazy, but still somewhat shiny. Popped leg hair, which is encouraging (I've never had a dull razor do this). Shave test tomorrow. (Obviously I want to do the real McCoy w/ slurry later! )
I could definitely feel the hone is not "perfectly" flat. Not sure whether you'd recommend lapping or no. I'm thinking since I'm using slurry anyway, probably not.
)I could definitely feel the hone is not "perfectly" flat. Not sure whether you'd recommend lapping or no. I'm thinking since I'm using slurry anyway, probably not.
Shave test update: yesterday, haved a 4-day beard w/ a Sheffield wedge--very close in spots; not quite as close in others--definitely not as smooth as a coticule. Today, just shaved w/ a little 9/16 spike. Very sharp, but a bit harsh, actually. Missed a few hairs on my neck on the 2nd pass. I used Tabac soap, which sadly is starting to irritate my skin a bit, so that was most likely part of it. (Shame, I like that soap.)
Will pick up DMT tonight & then do slurry the "proper" way.
(Shame, I like that soap.)Will pick up DMT tonight & then do slurry the "proper" way.
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Promising results :thumbup:
you may want to try adding a squirt of glycerine to the Tabac, or even grating it up with 50/50 palmolive soap (or similar) I know thats what our own Sir Bart Does
Good look with the DMT and I look forward to hearing how you get on
Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
you may want to try adding a squirt of glycerine to the Tabac, or even grating it up with 50/50 palmolive soap (or similar) I know thats what our own Sir Bart Does
Good look with the DMT and I look forward to hearing how you get on
Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
JimR
Well-Known Member
PA23-250 said:Shave test update: yesterday, haved a 4-day beard w/ a Sheffield wedge--very close in spots; not quite as close in others--definitely not as smooth as a coticule. Today, just shaved w/ a little 9/16 spike. Very sharp, but a bit harsh, actually. Missed a few hairs on my neck on the 2nd pass. I used Tabac soap, which sadly is starting to irritate my skin a bit, so that was most likely part of it.
Will pick up DMT tonight & then do slurry the "proper" way.
It sounds like you're getting a good start there! Harshness of the blade is something I associate with non-slurry honing, but that's just me.
As for the Tabac, that is too bad. I love the stuff, and green cousin. Maybe give it a rest, try something totally different for a while to give your skin a rest, and come back to it. Skin is funny that way, in my experience...
I don't know, I think it may not be just you as far as water harshness goes. I definitely noticed it; more on the spike than on the Sheffield. I remember Lynn saying he still used paste after using his Nakayama (presumably on water). [Not sure why you'd use such a rare stone if you're going to paste afterwards, but that's for another discussion. ]
Tried slurry yesterday, but forgot to break in the DMT--it left nickel in the slurry which microchipped 1 of my razors...
I removed the chips (today) & set a new bevel on the coticule & diluted until it shaved arm hair, but not perfectly. Never really got all that much sharper after 3 slurries on the Nakayama. Did I do too big a jump there? I'm thinking/hoping yes.
Also tried (yesterday) a very smiley W&B that is a real problem. Did 4 slurries &now it won't even shave arm hair & TPT is pretty spotty. I had to use my d8C for slurry then & probably didn't make enough. It was thick, but there wasn't a lot on the stone. Could that do it?
The draw on this stone is amazing, though (slurry gives the best feedback)! A little wave of water even precedes the slurry front. Circles are dead easy to do single-handed (something I never could really get right on synthetics; coticules, sometimes I could.) The only negative (aside from the worry that I somehow won't be able to get it sharp using slurry is the color of said slurry. Kind of an yellowish orange that doesn't really show metal well. I'm pretty sure I'm removing it (bevels haze up), but not @ what rate.
]Tried slurry yesterday, but forgot to break in the DMT--it left nickel in the slurry which microchipped 1 of my razors...
I removed the chips (today) & set a new bevel on the coticule & diluted until it shaved arm hair, but not perfectly. Never really got all that much sharper after 3 slurries on the Nakayama. Did I do too big a jump there? I'm thinking/hoping yes.
Also tried (yesterday) a very smiley W&B that is a real problem. Did 4 slurries &now it won't even shave arm hair & TPT is pretty spotty. I had to use my d8C for slurry then & probably didn't make enough.
It was thick, but there wasn't a lot on the stone. Could that do it? The draw on this stone is amazing, though (slurry gives the best feedback)! A little wave of water even precedes the slurry front. Circles are dead easy to do single-handed (something I never could really get right on synthetics; coticules, sometimes I could.) The only negative (aside from the worry that I somehow won't be able to get it sharp using slurry
is the color of said slurry. Kind of an yellowish orange that doesn't really show metal well. I'm pretty sure I'm removing it (bevels haze up), but not @ what rate.
: Just tried again w/ another razor. It was honed up to 8k previously & popping hairs beautifully. Gave it the exact procedure, the 3rd time allowing the slurry to break down into a paste. Even added water & let it thicken again. Unshaveably dull. Gave another razor treatment on water only & it was still popping hairs. Should be sharp but harsh if the 1st 2 were anything to go by. Unfortunately, the stamps are now gone from raising slurries. What is going on here?
I did feel some type of foreign grit on the stone (maybe that bloody DMT is still not broken in?), so that couldn't played a role, but I made dull edges on slurry last night w/ a well-broken-in D8C & same result. Dull.
I did feel some type of foreign grit on the stone (maybe that bloody DMT is still not broken in?), so that couldn't played a role, but I made dull edges on slurry last night w/ a well-broken-in D8C & same result. Dull.
JimR
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry to hear that! Let's see if we fan figure this out together...
I've tried this method with some other hones now, and they all worked the same.
Some questions: are you using pressure? When you refresh the slurry, WHEN are you doing it? How many passes are you making? Is the slurry flowing easily or is it pasty and sticky? It should be thick but still flowing...
Also, and here is an important point, Kiita have a reputation for being softer than other stones. Thus, if you use too much pressure, then you are going to be releasing more particles during the honing, which is going to prevent your slurry from doing any polishing.
And let me ask--when you make the slurry are you pressing the stone, or just gently rubbing it on top? I don't know this, but my feeling is if you're using any pressure when making the slurry, then the rough DMT might make up too rough a slurry? Just a thought...
I've tried this method with some other hones now, and they all worked the same.
Some questions: are you using pressure? When you refresh the slurry, WHEN are you doing it? How many passes are you making? Is the slurry flowing easily or is it pasty and sticky? It should be thick but still flowing...
Also, and here is an important point, Kiita have a reputation for being softer than other stones. Thus, if you use too much pressure, then you are going to be releasing more particles during the honing, which is going to prevent your slurry from doing any polishing.
And let me ask--when you make the slurry are you pressing the stone, or just gently rubbing it on top? I don't know this, but my feeling is if you're using any pressure when making the slurry, then the rough DMT might make up too rough a slurry? Just a thought...
Bart
Well-Known Member
I'm not much of a specialist when it comes to Japanese hones, but I 'd like to try offering some help anyway.
Let's assume that the hone is capable, then it's clear that the problem lies with insufficient breakdown of the slurry. I believe that's the only logical conclusion.
JimR is probably right that you need to avoid knocking fresh particles out of the hone, while working on it. That indeed puts a limit on the pressure you can use.
I also think the stroke must not only sharpen the edge, but also promote the breakdown of the particles. For that, you need to trap the slurry between the razor and the surface. With only an edge leading stroke, that might not be happening very efficiently. Because the vast majority of the slurry escapes the grinding action. On the other hand, during back-and-forth or circling strokes, part of the motion really catches the slurry under the spine and traps it for being ground down. When I hone on my Nakayama, during the breakdown stage I really look upon the spine of the razor as a "slurry-crusher". (Taping the edge might not be the wisest action during this part of the process) But the crusher doesn't trap much during an edge leading stroke only.
When I decide that the slurry is properly broken down (I have no idea how to recognize the exact moment, so I probably do way too much slurry grinding), that's when I change over doing only edge leading X-strokes.
Sorry for this confusing explanation. (my time is very limited at the moment). I hope it somehow makes sense.
You're not nearly ready to give up.
Bart.
Let's assume that the hone is capable, then it's clear that the problem lies with insufficient breakdown of the slurry. I believe that's the only logical conclusion.
JimR is probably right that you need to avoid knocking fresh particles out of the hone, while working on it. That indeed puts a limit on the pressure you can use.
I also think the stroke must not only sharpen the edge, but also promote the breakdown of the particles. For that, you need to trap the slurry between the razor and the surface. With only an edge leading stroke, that might not be happening very efficiently. Because the vast majority of the slurry escapes the grinding action. On the other hand, during back-and-forth or circling strokes, part of the motion really catches the slurry under the spine and traps it for being ground down. When I hone on my Nakayama, during the breakdown stage I really look upon the spine of the razor as a "slurry-crusher". (Taping the edge might not be the wisest action during this part of the process) But the crusher doesn't trap much during an edge leading stroke only.
When I decide that the slurry is properly broken down (I have no idea how to recognize the exact moment, so I probably do way too much slurry grinding), that's when I change over doing only edge leading X-strokes.
Sorry for this confusing explanation. (my time is very limited at the moment). I hope it somehow makes sense.
You're not nearly ready to give up.
Bart.
JimR
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...circles are a common way of honing in Japan, but not the only way. I use circles on my razor-size hone because it's short, and this is the bes way to maximize contact. However, thinking about this, that maximization of contact ALSO maximizes slurry breakdown...
So that might be a good idea.
I don't know that I would recommend taping the edge at any point--I feel that the gradual breakdown of the slurry in contact with the edge is an important part of the process. Meaning, if you start taping the edge to break down the slurry with the spine, you won't be getting the even, thorough polish on the whole bevel.
So that might be a good idea.
I don't know that I would recommend taping the edge at any point--I feel that the gradual breakdown of the slurry in contact with the edge is an important part of the process. Meaning, if you start taping the edge to break down the slurry with the spine, you won't be getting the even, thorough polish on the whole bevel.
OK, let's see... I definitely do circles on this thing. I'm not (consciously) adding any pressure, but this thing has so much suction on slurry (curiously not much at all on water ), that even that could be a bit much. I'll try even lighter. One problem is that the color of the slurry makes it extremely difficult to see how much metal has been removed.
I definitely used pressure when raising the slurry. Once it even left a very slight scratch from the DMT. Maybe that was part of it? Consistency was about like the YouTube video of your barber. I refreshed when it was getting slightly thicker, but nowhere near like paste. Never counted passes, I'm afraid. And I've never taped spines on it.
I definitely felt something else in there (thinking residual DMT nickel) & one time something even made a slight scratch in the hone surface. I just checked the spike & there were once again microchips in the edge. Thinking it's that new DMT.
The hone definitely works on water, so hopefully that means it should work on slurry, right?
), that even that could be a bit much. I'll try even lighter. One problem is that the color of the slurry makes it extremely difficult to see how much metal has been removed.I definitely used pressure when raising the slurry. Once it even left a very slight scratch from the DMT. Maybe that was part of it? Consistency was about like the YouTube video of your barber. I refreshed when it was getting slightly thicker, but nowhere near like paste. Never counted passes, I'm afraid. And I've never taped spines on it.
I definitely felt something else in there (thinking residual DMT nickel) & one time something even made a slight scratch in the hone surface. I just checked the spike & there were once again microchips in the edge.
Thinking it's that new DMT. The hone definitely works on water, so hopefully that means it should work on slurry, right?
Smythe
Well-Known Member
Just a note, i don't use diamond hones but, there have been reports of slurry abrading away the nickle plating holding the diamonds in place, if this happens a few diamonds will become detached and end up in your slurry... I don't have to tell you what this will do to your edge:scared: .