What's New?
ShavingUniverse.com

Register a free account now!

If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.

Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal

There are two types of hones.

One type, with representatives as the Spyderco UF (and possibly also some barberhones?) are of a solid ceramic material that's harder than steel. These hones depend on a structured surface to abrade steel. This is the same working principle a file uses. Those hones can change properties when the surface structure is altered, much like the difference between a coarse and a fine file.

A completely other type of hones, to which most synthetic waterhones belong, and also all natural hones I am aware off (including Japanese honzans and our beloved Coticules) don't quite work that way. They contain abrassive particles of more or less uniform size, that are harder than steel. These paricles are held together by a softer binder, too soft to play any significant role in the abrassion. When these hones are lapped with something coarse, i.e. a DMT-C, this does not alter the abrasive behavior to the hone, because the fresh particles that are exposed are essentially the same as those that were knocked off the binder. If you lap or rub such a hone with a very coarse rubbing hone, that action could leave grooves in the surface. While those grooves will have an effect on the "draw" of the hone, they will not affect the scratch pattern left on steel. These hones are limited by the depth of abrasion of their particles. Surface texture plays no part in that.

Theoretically, if you use a very coarse rubbing stone (i.e. a DMT-XX at 120 grit) you could end up with clustered particles whitin the slurry, but these quickly fall apart while honing. In such case, one could rub a bit with an old chisel or some other piece of steel, to homogenize the slurry. I raise slurry with a DMT-C (325 grit) on a Nakayama, and have had no need for any of this. I also have a ridiculously small piece of another fine Nakayama, that I can use to raise slurry. I have not found any difference between both options. If the DMT would loose a single diamond particle, it would be noticed and removed promptly during the first few honing strokes. Yet that has never happened. I have used 600 grit sandpaper, in a pinch, for raising slurry on a Coticule. An occasionally lost grit showed up immediately and was easily removed.
For some reason, my DMT-E (1200 grit) looses some of its nickel matrix, when used for raising slurry. I don't think it has a negative impact, yet I like to start with a nice, clean slurry in stead of with a dull gray one. I also suppose it's not healthy for the DMT-E in the long run. (Actually, the company DMT does NOT recommend anything finer than the DMT-C for rubbing against other hones).

Best regards,
Bart.
 
What you're saying makes perfect sense, Bart.

If I understand you right, you're saying that the scoring of the surface of a natural hone (Japanese, coticule, whatever) by a DMT hone, will not affect the functioning of the hone as the surface structure of the hone itself is not doing the honing, but rather the particles of abrasive in the matrix of the natural hone. Leaving hone flatness aside, then, the micro-ridges left by the DMT would not affect the grit level of the hone.

The DMT's and lapping film would make up a third type of hone - the high-grade sandpaper type; where the abrasive is held in a thin layer on the surface of the hone. I've not read any posts/articles about the lifetimes of a DMT hone, but undoubtedly they wear down after a while, as the diamond particles are lost from the metal surface. The lapping film certainly wears out quickly.
 
Indeed, yohannrjm. I believe that's a correct observations. DMTs certainly become slower over time. Mine are sufficiently worn to notice that very well.

Best regards,
Bart.
 
Bart, thanks for that clear-up.

Indeed, Japanese hones are a kind of slate with a "clay" binder. Even the very hard stones have the same basic matrix, and thus will still give up their particles with water and abrasion.

Gentlemen, in terms of smaller honzan, I have some bids in on an auction for several, and as for the replacements, well, I have been testing small pieces of Maruo-yama stones. These are softer than the honzan hones, but just as fine, and in terms of slurry use this might be ok. The good thing is they are still being mined, so readily available, and also cheaper than honzan, but I want to make totally sure of their quality before anyone else tries them. I will have to beg your patience a bit more...
 
Wow guys! There is a lot of good information here, a lot to digest. I need a J-Nat now! They sound like very interesting stones. Thanks everybody, for your contributions, and thanks Jim for being the driving force behind this.

Long time no see guys. All seems to be going well in the Cafeteria. I now have quite a bit more free time (YES!).

Happy shaving,
Justin
 
Wow guys! There is a lot of good information here, a lot to digest. I need a J-Nat now! They sound like very interesting stones. Thanks everybody, for your contributions, and thanks Jim for being the driving force behind this.

Long time no see guys. All seems to be going well in the Cafeteria. I now have quite a bit more free time (YES!).

Happy shaving,
Justin
 
justin said:
Long time no see guys. All seems to be going well in the Cafeteria. I now have quite a bit more free time (YES!).

Happy shaving,
Justin
Click to expand...

We missed you Justin, good to "see" you back dude :thumbup:

HONE ON!!
 
Bart - I'd like to make second post thanking you for providing this great resource and homage to the Coticule. :thumbup: I've found the Unicot honing method very useful.

JimR - I'd also like to thank you for this thread. While following it surreptitiously, I have found it exceedingly helpful. Through sheer dumb luck, I was moving in a similar direction. By making your observations and experiences public, you've greatly enhanced my use of Japanese natural hones.
 
Since this thread has helped me quite a bit, I thought I'd share where I was vis a vis where I am after reading about Jim's experiences.

My first Japanese natural was a Maruichi Maruka Nakayama. A very, very hard and exceedingly slow stone. When I say hard, I mean HARD - put a puddle of water on top of it, walk away for 20 minutes and it is still a puddle. And when I say slow, I mean slower than a Chinese 12K.

Because it was so slow, the seller recommended that I use a slurry with it. Following his instructions, I found that the hone did indeed excel with hollow ground, carbon steel razors. The edges it produced were exceedingly sharp and smooth. But I wanted those edges on all of my razors, not merely a subset of them.

Through stubborness and dumb-luck, eventually I found a way to go was building a slurry with a Tsushima Nagura. Hone until it thickens, at which point dilute the pasty slurry with water and repeat three to five times.

So naturally I read about the idea of refreshing the slurry after it thickens and repeating the process several with great interest. Absolutely brilliant. Not only does it make my ridiculously expensive rock far more versatile, it also has allowed me to hone razors on it which I wouldn’t have otherwise bothered with. Used the technique on a Takeda Damascus Livi which was giving me fits getting right. Now it has an impossibly good edge.

Thanks Jim!
 
I'm late to this thread but I thought I'd comment.

First, I have to express my sincerest gratitude for Jim's willingness to share his knowledge. I can't tell you how informative this thread has been. :thumbup:

Second, I sold some nagura stones a while back. I was told that they were all mejiro and appropriate for JP finishing stones. It turns out that they were a mixed bag of nagura types. Some were pretty good at finishing and some weren't good at all. When I used one of them on my Kiita and had success, I thought I was having success with a mejiro nagura. It looks like I wasn't using a mejiro at all. I have no idea what I was using. Thinking back, it makes sense because some people who bought "mejiro" naguras said they had trouble with it while others raved about it. They weren't all using the same thing. I'm sorry that some of you didn't get a stone that could be used as final stage, slurry stone. I was trying to help and my ignorance cost us. :blush:

Third, I'm getting an Awaseto that will serve as my final finishing whetstone. I won't use it for anything else. I have other hones that handle the honing stages before the Awaseto. Does that mean I shouldn't get a nagura and should only get a small Nakayama slurry stone?
 
Telly, I don't know the answer to your question, but allow me to be the first to extend you
[h2]a warm welcome to Coticule.be[/h2]

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
From my long conversations with So,
it seems like there is no nagura as fine as a good quality polishing stone.
To raise slurry on a finisher one should use a diamond plate.
I think that using a piece of the same stone as a slurry stone is obvious, but who will dare cut their $500+ Nakayama and risk a split?
From my personal experimentation the slurry stone has to be harder but not necessarily lower grit than the polishing stone.
I have a crappy 330mate Kiita (in the 20k range)that I find fairly hard judging by the ease of creating slurry with DMT. I broke a piece of it with the idea to use as a slurry stone on my Asagi, the result was slurry from the Kiita stone nit the Asagi. The Asagi is harder and finer, although I can not tell much difference. my second test was done with Yanoshigima suita (3-8/10k) with the same result as before. This theory of mine can of course be not correct, I wish I had more ways to test.
 
Bart said:
Telly, I don't know the answer to your question, but allow me to be the first to extend you
[h2]a warm welcome to Coticule.be[/h2]

Kind regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Bart. Glad to be here.
 
mainaman said:
From my long conversations with So,
it seems like there is no nagura as fine as a good quality polishing stone.
To raise slurry on a finisher one should use a diamond plate.
I think that using a piece of the same stone as a slurry stone is obvious, but who will dare cut their $500+ Nakayama and risk a split?
From my personal experimentation the slurry stone has to be harder but not necessarily lower grit than the polishing stone.
I have a crappy 330mate Kiita (in the 20k range)that I find fairly hard judging by the ease of creating slurry with DMT. I broke a piece of it with the idea to use as a slurry stone on my Asagi, the result was slurry from the Kiita stone nit the Asagi. The Asagi is harder and finer, although I can not tell much difference. my second test was done with Yanoshigima suita (3-8/10k) with the same result as before. This theory of mine can of course be not correct, I wish I had more ways to test.
Click to expand...

What grit is the DMT plate that you're using? I have the DMT D6E and D8EE. I am thinking about buying a 5 in. Nakayama, cutting it up into 3-4 pieces, and using them as slurry stones.

Generally speaking, Asagi stones are always harder than Kiita stones. If anything, the Asagi would probably serve as the better slurry stone for the Kiita.
 
Stefan,

If we're talking true nagura, there are some people who have told me that a KOMA nagura can be used as a finisher, but I've never used one (ounce for ounce, they're as expensive as a good Nakayama--up to $65 for 100g of stone). Otherwise, yeah, a nagura is not for finishing. that's why we use the Honzan stone.

Telly, Yeah, a nagura needs to have the red Asano stamp. There are apparently a lot of stones that LOOK like nagura, but aren't, and it takes a professional to tell the difference.

And as for your third question, Yep. No need for Nagura for you--they are supposedtake care of the sharpening BEFORE your final polish/hone. However, the whole point of this is to avoid the use of preliminary stones. If you don't mind me asking, what stones are you using before the awasedo?

Also, if you can contact hone miners/distributors they often have boxes of small pieces of honzan--Nakayama, Okudo, etc. that they sell for a discount for use as "tomonagura", meaning "paired nagura".

Also...keep an eye on the marketplace here. ;)
 
TstebinsB said:
...... I am thinking about buying a 5 in. Nakayama, cutting it up into 3-4 pieces, and using them as slurry stones.

Generally speaking, Asagi stones are always harder than Kiita stones. If anything, the Asagi would probably serve as the better slurry stone for the Kiita.
Click to expand...

Hey Telly,

Welcome to coticule.be. This thread was also very useful to me in getting the best out of the Asagi you sold me.

The difference in edge that I got when using Asagi honzan instead of the Nagura was tremendous. There truely isn't any reason to do any more polishing once I've finished honing on the Asagi.

If you do buy a Kiita to cut up, let me know....I'd be interested in buying a piece. I've not yet picked up a Kiita hone, but I may do so sometime (if I can find one I can afford).
 
yohannrjm said:
TstebinsB said:
...... I am thinking about buying a 5 in. Nakayama, cutting it up into 3-4 pieces, and using them as slurry stones.

Generally speaking, Asagi stones are always harder than Kiita stones. If anything, the Asagi would probably serve as the better slurry stone for the Kiita.
Click to expand...

Hey Telly,

Welcome to coticule.be. This thread was also very useful to me in getting the best out of the Asagi you sold me.

The difference in edge that I got when using Asagi honzan instead of the Nagura was tremendous. There truely isn't any reason to do any more polishing once I've finished honing on the Asagi.

If you do buy a Kiita to cut up, let me know....I'd be interested in buying a piece. I've not yet picked up a Kiita hone, but I may do so sometime (if I can find one I can afford).
Click to expand...

I would also be interested in a kiita honzan to go with my kiita.
 
I too would be Interested. If possible could you please add me to the list?
My sincere thanks
:thumbup:
 
yohannrjm said:
TstebinsB said:
...... I am thinking about buying a 5 in. Nakayama, cutting it up into 3-4 pieces, and using them as slurry stones.

Generally speaking, Asagi stones are always harder than Kiita stones. If anything, the Asagi would probably serve as the better slurry stone for the Kiita.
Click to expand...

Hey Telly,

Welcome to coticule.be. This thread was also very useful to me in getting the best out of the Asagi you sold me.

The difference in edge that I got when using Asagi honzan instead of the Nagura was tremendous. There truely isn't any reason to do any more polishing once I've finished honing on the Asagi.

If you do buy a Kiita to cut up, let me know....I'd be interested in buying a piece. I've not yet picked up a Kiita hone, but I may do so sometime (if I can find one I can afford).
Click to expand...

Hey Yohann:

Are you using the ones I sent you?

I haven't been able to find a Kiita good enough while also cheap enough to cut up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top