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Lather and honing
- Thread starter Bart
- Start Date
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Sorry I misunderstood, I do know that some people go straight to leather after they hone, although I have no idea which stones they finish on? it would be interesting to see how the HHT goes after stropping straight on leather, and compare the result to the same razor after cloth and leather.
As far as shaving goes, I know for me the cloth etc, is a very important part of the stropping regime, I use 30 strokes before leather every shave, and I do a dozen or so after each shave to dry and clean the very edge.
Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
As far as shaving goes, I know for me the cloth etc, is a very important part of the stropping regime, I use 30 strokes before leather every shave, and I do a dozen or so after each shave to dry and clean the very edge.
Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
DJKELLY
Well-Known Member
Me, too, Inky. I am so used to stropping with linen now that it is automatic. I honed up an old, OLD, Hunter & Sons wedge that had noticeably milder steel than some on the soapstone. I intended to shave with it off the hone but since I am snowed in right now with a 30 year storm, I honed up four more to test another stone. Naturally I picked the Hunter to strop first, I think because it is so easy to manipulate on the strop/hone. Whatever, I blew the experiment out of habit.tat2Ralfy said:
By the way (for Robin and newbies), I am now calculating bevel angles every honing. The Hunter had a 15 degree bevel and though it felt very smooth during the shave, it was way too crispy. Very, very sharp off the soapstone, but crispy. I honed a Inox Friodur at the same time, and though they are noted for slight crispiness, it was a wonderful shave on the other half of my face off the same soapy la dressante. (I need to really check with you rock experts to see if it a LD since it has some interesting mingling of layers on the side of the stone) I did use tape on the wedge to get it to a little steeper bevel, but it was still less than "standard". Now I am wondering if the crispy shave was due to a low bevel angle and that maybe this blade can take a thin bevel with its milder steel without chipping. More experiments, always more experiments.
Later, Denny
TM280
Well-Known Member
Well Denny,
Your wax trick works for me. I think I need to smooth the surface more since the drag was a little bumpy. But I got a rather dramatic increase in keeness on two different razors. I was using the raw Les Latneuses I showed in another thread.
But...I had finished on liquid soap a couple days ago with excellent results and had a wonderful shave. Tonight I had weepers for the first time in a year
This shave really lacked the smoothness of the stone I had going the last time. The edge looked good at magnification also.
I was concentrating on lower shave pressure than usual, even. So, I think I need to try smoothing down the surface and give it another go.
regards,
Torolf
Your wax trick works for me. I think I need to smooth the surface more since the drag was a little bumpy. But I got a rather dramatic increase in keeness on two different razors. I was using the raw Les Latneuses I showed in another thread.
But...I had finished on liquid soap a couple days ago with excellent results and had a wonderful shave. Tonight I had weepers for the first time in a year
This shave really lacked the smoothness of the stone I had going the last time. The edge looked good at magnification also.I was concentrating on lower shave pressure than usual, even. So, I think I need to try smoothing down the surface and give it another go.
regards,
Torolf
DJKELLY
Well-Known Member
Me, too, with a harsh shave, Torbo. It is deceptive, too. The blade felt so smooth and coming off a coticule I knew to be mellowish, I wasn't as careful as I should have been. Now I have a few bumps and will surely get another harsh shave unless I give it a rest. It is really frustrating because I don't think I can test it right now, and I am sure there is something to learn here.TM280 said:Well Denny,
Your wax trick works for me. I think I need to smooth the surface more since the drag was a little bumpy. But I got a rather dramatic increase in keeness on two different razors. I was using the raw Les Latneuses I showed in another thread.
But...I had finished on liquid soap a couple days ago with excellent results and had a wonderful shave. Tonight I had weepers for the first time in a year
I was concentrating on lower shave pressure than usual, even. So, I think I need to try smoothing down the surface and give it another go.
regards,
Torolf
This is the second time that I got a "Charnley Forrest" edge from the tallow trick. By the way, for Bart, I have now honed four razors on tallow with no noticeable decrease in efficiency noted. The last was my Revisor and it took a great edge in the HHT4 range right off the stone.
I think we may have established that tallow is a very effective "grit decreaser" but it is not worth it to me if it destroys the whole point of the coticule edge. It brings up the old question of what is sharp enough. I had so little drag with this technique that right now I am pretty disappointed in the results. There has to be a happy medium, and it may be lather rather than tallow/wax.
If your stone surface was a little bumpy, just give it a couple drops of lighter fluid and rub it with your thumb. You can feel it getting very smooth immediately. (Don't use you dish scrubbie
)Like others have said, this is really interesting to me. Your pal, Denny
Bart
Well-Known Member
Interesting! Interesting!
I haven't found the time yet to continue my won trials in this field, but everything Torolf and Dennis have said, seems to point to edge that are a bit too keen.
I have never thought that the fabled Coticule smoothness was the product of some enigmatic and magic property of these hones. At least: not only. It seems to be that Coticules offer for many the perfect marriage between ample keenness for shaving, but not so much that it easily blemishes the skin and the absence of microscopical,yet acute jaggedness at the very edge.
If you push the keenness barrier, I have little doubt that the edge will become more prone to remove skin cells, more prone to nicks, and more prone to cause ingrown hairs. Likely your shaving style needs to adapt a bit, because the normal Coticule edge is very forgiving to pressure, and can handle the occasional steeper shaving angle very well.
That said, I'm still thrilled, because I was searching this method not to up the keenness of all Coticule edges, because they already have what I consider to be perfect keenness for shaving, but as an easy tactic for those edges that refuse to bow to the normal routine.
It seems that Dennis' use of wax works better than my use of dry soap, but I don't doubt the effect is basically the same, and that the edges will revert back to "water" smoothness with a few laps on a Coticule covered with only water.
In other words, we might have a failsafe option for those cases where water doesn't cut it.
And we get this great opportunity to overshoot the keenness and dial it back with a few laps on water to just where we want it.
The only disadvantage is that for practical use, the best option will be to keep a waxed Coticule separate,for that task.
Kind regards,
Bart.
I haven't found the time yet to continue my won trials in this field, but everything Torolf and Dennis have said, seems to point to edge that are a bit too keen.
I have never thought that the fabled Coticule smoothness was the product of some enigmatic and magic property of these hones. At least: not only.
It seems to be that Coticules offer for many the perfect marriage between ample keenness for shaving, but not so much that it easily blemishes the skin and the absence of microscopical,yet acute jaggedness at the very edge.If you push the keenness barrier, I have little doubt that the edge will become more prone to remove skin cells, more prone to nicks, and more prone to cause ingrown hairs. Likely your shaving style needs to adapt a bit, because the normal Coticule edge is very forgiving to pressure, and can handle the occasional steeper shaving angle very well.
That said, I'm still thrilled, because I was searching this method not to up the keenness of all Coticule edges, because they already have what I consider to be perfect keenness for shaving, but as an easy tactic for those edges that refuse to bow to the normal routine.
It seems that Dennis' use of wax works better than my use of dry soap, but I don't doubt the effect is basically the same, and that the edges will revert back to "water" smoothness with a few laps on a Coticule covered with only water.
In other words, we might have a failsafe option for those cases where water doesn't cut it.
And we get this great opportunity to overshoot the keenness and dial it back with a few laps on water to just where we want it.
The only disadvantage is that for practical use, the best option will be to keep a waxed Coticule separate,for that task.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Bart
Well-Known Member
I rubbed a La Grise with a tea light, moistened my thumb with a bit of Coleman fuel (which I think is basically the same as lighter fluid) and spread out the wax to a nice and even coat. As Dennis said, nothing difficult about it.
Then I honed a Mack with quick Dilucot on a La veinette, and ended up with a HHT-1 on a thin hair (violin). 30 X-strokes on the La Grise later, the edge passes HHT-3 on the same hair. This thing definitely works.
I stropped in on leather only and got a HHT-4. After that I tried 40 linen and 40 leather and saw some, but not much further improvement of the HHT. Let's call it 4.5.
That equals the result I got with soap, but this wax coating is definitely easier and less awkward to use, and I suspect it's a more durable coating (meaning that one can leave the Coticule coated and use it for several razors).
I can't test shave with this edge anytime soon, because I have yet some test shaves to do for the Operation True Blue experiment (which is about to be concluded).
But even if it turns out a bit too sharp, and think we can easily speak of another milestone in Coticule honing here.
To all who have followed along so far and joined the experimentation, a big thanks, with a special recommendation for Dennis.
Bart.
Then I honed a Mack with quick Dilucot on a La veinette, and ended up with a HHT-1 on a thin hair (violin). 30 X-strokes on the La Grise later, the edge passes HHT-3 on the same hair. This thing definitely works.
I stropped in on leather only and got a HHT-4. After that I tried 40 linen and 40 leather and saw some, but not much further improvement of the HHT. Let's call it 4.5.
That equals the result I got with soap, but this wax coating is definitely easier and less awkward to use, and I suspect it's a more durable coating (meaning that one can leave the Coticule coated and use it for several razors).
I can't test shave with this edge anytime soon, because I have yet some test shaves to do for the Operation True Blue experiment (which is about to be concluded).
But even if it turns out a bit too sharp, and think we can easily speak of another milestone in Coticule honing here.
To all who have followed along so far and joined the experimentation, a big thanks, with a special recommendation for Dennis.
Bart.
This has been a very interesting thread to read.
Now if I only had an extra coticule laying around to leave waxed...
Ah, but I'm not a fan of super-keen edges anyway. I think I will be content to use my one coticule until I get it learned and my technique allows for good edges at least the majority of the time.
Now if I only had an extra coticule laying around to leave waxed...
Ah, but I'm not a fan of super-keen edges anyway. I think I will be content to use my one coticule until I get it learned and my technique allows for good edges at least the majority of the time.
RicTic
Well-Known Member
I've tried this several times with success. In that it boosted the results of the HHT, but I didn't like the shave it gave me.
I've not pursued this method lately because of it, plus I'm getting some wonderful results of the hybrid side of my Les Latneuses with Dilucot, following Gary's recommendations.
The question I have is, once the HHT has been upped on the wax, will (for example) 50 laps on water only, reduce the keeness without losing the HHT level?
Anyone tried this yet?
I've not pursued this method lately because of it, plus I'm getting some wonderful results of the hybrid side of my Les Latneuses with Dilucot, following Gary's recommendations.
The question I have is, once the HHT has been upped on the wax, will (for example) 50 laps on water only, reduce the keeness without losing the HHT level?
Anyone tried this yet?
garyhaywood
Well-Known Member
I should imagine you won't loose keeness. You will gain smoother edge . I've used coticule after paste, and other hones the coticule has always gave me a nicer edge. The coticule on water just puts the icing on the cake. for example if you used 4k/8k norton. Then finished on coticule with water you would have a smoother shave. Or let's say dilucot method on coticule , 10k naniwa to reach desired keeness. Then coticule water . You would get the smoother nicer edge . I should imagine the same would happen after the soap coticule. Best thing is just try it and seee what happens, you may like it.
Regards gary
Regards gary
Bart
Well-Known Member
With the waxed Coticule, you can push the keeness to a freakish level. Whether you like it or not, is a matter of preference and likely also a matter if your shaving style being tuned in with using such edges. Honing on water, after coming of wax, will definitely revert the edge back to water. As I already implied earlier, I will definetely not hesitate to use this new method, whenever my HHT results dictate that I can use a tad more keenness. Whether I will dial back a bit, by doing 5 or 10 laps on water, I don't know yet.
So far, I found the edges produced with a coat of soap on the Coticule to be very good. I haven't test shaved with the waxes edge yet, but based on the HHT and the total absence of any jaggedness under the scope, I don't expect it to be harsh.
Kind regard,
Bart
So far, I found the edges produced with a coat of soap on the Coticule to be very good. I haven't test shaved with the waxes edge yet, but based on the HHT and the total absence of any jaggedness under the scope, I don't expect it to be harsh.
Kind regard,
Bart
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Wonderful thread chaps :thumbup:
I too will try the wax next time up, and to just stir things up a little more, I will try it on my vintage combination, this stone is the hardest I have ever seen, and normally takes 100-150 laps on water to show the slightest increase in HHT, I wonder if a wax coat will reduce that?
Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
I too will try the wax next time up, and to just stir things up a little more, I will try it on my vintage combination, this stone is the hardest I have ever seen, and normally takes 100-150 laps on water to show the slightest increase in HHT, I wonder if a wax coat will reduce that?
Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
DJKELLY
Well-Known Member
tat2Ralfy said:
I'll bet you a crumpet, Ralfy, that it goes the other way. I can't remember who suggested it, but water on the waxed coticule definitely changes the draw, and it is still in the "normal" range. I haven't had a chance to do a full touch up on water/wax, but I think it is another interesting aspect of the technique.
I like tea, Denny
mikromicke
Active Member
Unfortunately I didn't have time to read through the entire thread but I will definitely have to do so one day.
When I read about Bart's first experiments I thought WT... I've used detergent in the water before to be able to better observe the water coming up on the razor and thought I saw a bit better effect with it, but dry soap?
Today I've been struggling with two razors (probably because I haven't honed anything in a month and have lost my touch). I got them to a decent level I think. I then decided to test the soap trick. I first picked a shaving soap from Saint Charles Shave and soon realized that it was pretty soft. So I ended up with a pretty creamy coating on the coti. I did maybe 10-20 x-strokes on it and saw that i looked like my stone was dished and needed lapping. I stopped the experiment and cleaned everything up. Just for fun I tried a HHT on the razor anyway and was pretty amazed to see it way sharper than it was before. After stropping it was a 4-5 and seemed amazing. I'll test it tonight and see how it feels.
Very weird ... in a good way
When I read about Bart's first experiments I thought WT... I've used detergent in the water before to be able to better observe the water coming up on the razor and thought I saw a bit better effect with it, but dry soap?
Today I've been struggling with two razors (probably because I haven't honed anything in a month and have lost my touch). I got them to a decent level I think. I then decided to test the soap trick. I first picked a shaving soap from Saint Charles Shave and soon realized that it was pretty soft. So I ended up with a pretty creamy coating on the coti. I did maybe 10-20 x-strokes on it and saw that i looked like my stone was dished and needed lapping. I stopped the experiment and cleaned everything up. Just for fun I tried a HHT on the razor anyway and was pretty amazed to see it way sharper than it was before. After stropping it was a 4-5 and seemed amazing. I'll test it tonight and see how it feels.
Very weird ... in a good way
mikromicke
Active Member
Did a new try, first dilucot then taped spine and finished as a unicot and the edge didn't seem to impressive. I used a hard glycerine facial soap and rubbed it into the coti and did 10-20 x-strokes on it. Got HHT 4 pretty much all over the blade and after stropping the shave was among the better I got from this razor!