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Rebuilding a bevel..............help needed
- Thread starter tat2Ralfy
- Start Date
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys its awesome that with the help of the much much more experienced of us I was able to correct what was for me, a real problem blade, heres what I eventually did, and TBH if I had just reworked the bevel a'la Ray and followed the technique below I think this would have taken me a LOT less time, but I learnt soo much that I am very happy with the journey this old Girl and I have taken.
So after realising that my hones were glazed (doh!) I used the old diamond knife sharpening plate to lap the surfaces, I noticed that this leaves a kind of slurry, and it was this that I used to work the initial bevel, everytime I felt the blade losing its bite on the synthetic I wet the hone, gave it a few rubs with the diamond plate and without rinsing went back at it, using both hands and plenty of pressure, these old blades although called hollow ground are still very very ridged, I got it to pass tnt on 400 and then moved to 1000,this got the edge shaving arm hair very quickly.
Then it was 2 lots of 1/2 strokes on #10 :love: with slurry,a little extra work on the toe and heel got it all the way along, about 60 regular x strokes on a lighter slurry, until I could see the edge cutting through the wave all the way along its length.
1 extra layer of tape and a few drops of water added to the slurry, 50 fairly light x strokes, I rinsed the coti and blade and continued the x strokes on water alone, with ever less pressure and did 2 lots of 50, HHT was a loud violin on a fine hair, so I gave 1 rub with the slurry stone, added water and did 50 more strokes, HHT was now a very clean pop right in close to my fingers, but the toe and heel were not quite there so, 50 light rolling x on water only bought them nicely into line, HHT is a clean pop close to my fingers and a catch and pop about 1/2" out, thats way good enough for me to be confident that 60 canvas and 60 leather will make it a clean cut :thumbup:
Sir Bart, I ended up Breadknifing the blade down to 17.5 at its widest, and was able to use 1 layer of tape to shape the bevel, and because the new bevel is rather generous and also I was starting to reach the point where I thought I had given this enough time I then went unicot, and the 2nd layer bought the bevel to a very cool 16.2 degrees :thumbup:
6 layers of tape is just crazy, my full wedge (ish) 200yr old Wade&Butcher Magnum Bonum 8/8 doesnt even come close to 6 layers, that for me just shows what a little inexperience can do for you.
As said I will strop and shave with it tonight, and report back with my result :thumbup:
So after realising that my hones were glazed (doh!) I used the old diamond knife sharpening plate to lap the surfaces, I noticed that this leaves a kind of slurry, and it was this that I used to work the initial bevel, everytime I felt the blade losing its bite on the synthetic I wet the hone, gave it a few rubs with the diamond plate and without rinsing went back at it, using both hands and plenty of pressure, these old blades although called hollow ground are still very very ridged, I got it to pass tnt on 400 and then moved to 1000,this got the edge shaving arm hair very quickly.
Then it was 2 lots of 1/2 strokes on #10 :love: with slurry,a little extra work on the toe and heel got it all the way along, about 60 regular x strokes on a lighter slurry, until I could see the edge cutting through the wave all the way along its length.
1 extra layer of tape and a few drops of water added to the slurry, 50 fairly light x strokes, I rinsed the coti and blade and continued the x strokes on water alone, with ever less pressure and did 2 lots of 50, HHT was a loud violin on a fine hair, so I gave 1 rub with the slurry stone, added water and did 50 more strokes, HHT was now a very clean pop right in close to my fingers, but the toe and heel were not quite there so, 50 light rolling x on water only bought them nicely into line, HHT is a clean pop close to my fingers and a catch and pop about 1/2" out, thats way good enough for me to be confident that 60 canvas and 60 leather will make it a clean cut :thumbup:
Sir Bart, I ended up Breadknifing the blade down to 17.5 at its widest, and was able to use 1 layer of tape to shape the bevel, and because the new bevel is rather generous and also I was starting to reach the point where I thought I had given this enough time I then went unicot, and the 2nd layer bought the bevel to a very cool 16.2 degrees :thumbup:
6 layers of tape is just crazy, my full wedge (ish) 200yr old Wade&Butcher Magnum Bonum 8/8 doesnt even come close to 6 layers, that for me just shows what a little inexperience can do for you.
As said I will strop and shave with it tonight, and report back with my result :thumbup:
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
O.K. Shave fans the result is in :w00t:
I just had a very nice shave with this old Girl, bit of sting with the thayers but 10 mins later and I wouldnt know I had shaved (apart from the stubble loss of course....lol)
Very nice but maybe a little "Crispy"? I dont know its hard to describe, the stubble didnt just melt away, I could tell it was doing some work but there was no pull, and it was a smooth glide with no irritation, so yeah a good shaver, not the best ever in the whole wide world shave I ever had but a good good shave :thumbup: and I can tell you this Razor is very very sharp! I caught myself a couple of times but only light nicks.
What I intend to do is give it a few laps on the Crox and see how it changes.
Many many thanks for the help guys, its been emotional
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I just had a very nice shave with this old Girl, bit of sting with the thayers but 10 mins later and I wouldnt know I had shaved (apart from the stubble loss of course....lol)
Very nice but maybe a little "Crispy"? I dont know its hard to describe, the stubble didnt just melt away, I could tell it was doing some work but there was no pull, and it was a smooth glide with no irritation, so yeah a good shaver, not the best ever in the whole wide world shave I ever had but a good good shave :thumbup: and I can tell you this Razor is very very sharp! I caught myself a couple of times but only light nicks.
What I intend to do is give it a few laps on the Crox and see how it changes.
Many many thanks for the help guys, its been emotional
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tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Ok do kay ran the old girl 12 laps on the crox strop last night and shaved again
it was a little smoother than before but not much, I am happy to say i think I almost maxed out on the coti :thumbup:
I think this is one of those edges that will improve with use and plenty of stropping, my current rotation includes 11 others so it may be some time before I see a difference, altho if I could find the inner strength to maybe cut the rotation down to just 2 or 3 faves............... Nah! what ever was I thinking ....lol
it was a little smoother than before but not much, I am happy to say i think I almost maxed out on the coti :thumbup:
I think this is one of those edges that will improve with use and plenty of stropping, my current rotation includes 11 others so it may be some time before I see a difference, altho if I could find the inner strength to maybe cut the rotation down to just 2 or 3 faves............... Nah! what ever was I thinking ....lol
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Sure Ray no worries hold on......... Ok yeah if I look at 60X I can indeed see a little bit of micro-chipping here and there, Mmmm I think I will re-tape and give it a bit on the coti, failing that I will very gently dull this off on glass and then rehone.
Thank you Ray, why the heck I didnt check before is beyond me my friend?....lol though tbh the shave was too good for me too suspect I guess?
Thank you Ray, why the heck I didnt check before is beyond me my friend?....lol though tbh the shave was too good for me too suspect I guess?
tat2Ralfy said:
Ralfy,
Now that you have a great bevel, go back to that stage and re-establish a nice edge, without the tape. When you start to cut arm hair along all of the edge, wipe it off and check the whole edge with your 60x. If there is one minute chip, keep going until it is gone. Then, once that edge is totally smooth, continue on and not before.
Let me know how the finish is.
Ray
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Mork calling Orson....... oh hang on ...lol
Ok the result so far is its micro chip city down there. I have tried on just the coti with slurry and cant seem to get the edge smooth, I just keep getting chips, not massive wood saw types of thing, but tiny tiny teeth, of course it passes the hht with colours, because of the teeth and to make matters worse the bevel is now fast approaching the Etch, this thing is nearer a 5/8 than the original 6/8.
I have taken a break from honing this and instead worked on a WUG I have. and the difference is stunning, easy to build the bevel, and easy to remove the few chips, then a straight forward dilocut and finish on 100 laps with water left a catch and pop edge without any drama at all, it was a real pleasure to do, I stropped and shaved with it and its very smooth indeed.
Ok the result so far is its micro chip city down there. I have tried on just the coti with slurry and cant seem to get the edge smooth, I just keep getting chips, not massive wood saw types of thing, but tiny tiny teeth, of course it passes the hht with colours, because of the teeth and to make matters worse the bevel is now fast approaching the Etch, this thing is nearer a 5/8 than the original 6/8.
I have taken a break from honing this and instead worked on a WUG I have. and the difference is stunning, easy to build the bevel, and easy to remove the few chips, then a straight forward dilocut and finish on 100 laps with water left a catch and pop edge without any drama at all, it was a real pleasure to do, I stropped and shaved with it and its very smooth indeed.
Smythe
Well-Known Member
I tell you what Ralfy, there are a few blades out there that are harder than most (probably because they didn't draw the temper enough), these blades tend to be somewhat brittle at the edge causing the micro-chips... I see this in some Genco Pyramid blades with Nickel plating.
One way I found to deal with it is to use a soft stone like the,... 'cough" Norton 8K with lots of slurry. If you don't have a Norton then you could try this: Get the edge as best as you can on the Coticule and ignore the chips for now, then brake-out the pasted strop and refresh the paste, give the blade a few more laps than usual. What this will do is round the bevel slightly at the same time abrading away the chips... try that and tell me what you think.
One way I found to deal with it is to use a soft stone like the,... 'cough" Norton 8K with lots of slurry. If you don't have a Norton then you could try this: Get the edge as best as you can on the Coticule and ignore the chips for now, then brake-out the pasted strop and refresh the paste, give the blade a few more laps than usual. What this will do is round the bevel slightly at the same time abrading away the chips... try that and tell me what you think.
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
You know I did run it over the old pasted strop about 12 times before i posted this and it seemed to smooth out a little, heres what I will do tomoro (Xmas day) I will break out 2 pasted strops, 1 with Dovo black on soft leather and the other with Green crox on dovo canvas, and I will get all oldschool on this mutha, it cant hurt, also i will tape the spine the same as when I honed it just to keep that rounded bevel to a minimum :thumbup:
Tell you what, if that doesn't do it I have been eyeing up the scales for a Crown and Sword 7/8 extra hollow blade I have. its either that or I try my hand at making a pair in olive wood? but I did have that in mind for an older blade, we will see.
Tell you what, if that doesn't do it I have been eyeing up the scales for a Crown and Sword 7/8 extra hollow blade I have. its either that or I try my hand at making a pair in olive wood? but I did have that in mind for an older blade, we will see.
Smythe
Well-Known Member
It will most likely work Ralfy, they are very few of them, but they are out there… just a tad too hard because it didn’t spend enough time in the oven at the tempering stage of manufacture.
And the thing is, the Coticule is also brittle but it’s perfect for razors because most razor steels are at just the right hardness (or softness) to hold an edge without chipping. But if the steel is just a little bit too hard, and it meets the also brittle Coticule, then the steel will chip at the very edge. Something flexible like the pasted strop will get it sharp without chips (hard on soft or soft on hard).
This is not to say you are out of the woods with that blade, if you have a hard beard the edge may micro-chip again after the first shave, but hopefully the rounded bevel will help to minimize or eliminate it completely.
Speaking of Crown and Sword, working on a couple myself… really love those blades, trying to save the etching is a real pain in the a$$ but well worth it. And you know me, I will also try to save those molded scales too, but would love to see the results of your scales.
And the thing is, the Coticule is also brittle but it’s perfect for razors because most razor steels are at just the right hardness (or softness) to hold an edge without chipping. But if the steel is just a little bit too hard, and it meets the also brittle Coticule, then the steel will chip at the very edge. Something flexible like the pasted strop will get it sharp without chips (hard on soft or soft on hard).
This is not to say you are out of the woods with that blade, if you have a hard beard the edge may micro-chip again after the first shave, but hopefully the rounded bevel will help to minimize or eliminate it completely.
Speaking of Crown and Sword, working on a couple myself… really love those blades, trying to save the etching is a real pain in the a$$ but well worth it. And you know me, I will also try to save those molded scales too, but would love to see the results of your scales.
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
I am sure this is 1 of them slightly too hard to make a smooth edge, it is the hardest blade I have ever seen, I thought at 1st it was because I was using a ..... Cough synthetic, thats why I stuck with the coti.
And heres the Crown and sword, the etch is good but there is the 1 spot near the point that is pitted, I think I wont overwork it though, I dont think old razors need to look like they were made yesterday all the time you know?
Happy Holidays to you and yours Cedric my friend.
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And heres the Crown and sword, the etch is good but there is the 1 spot near the point that is pitted, I think I wont overwork it though, I dont think old razors need to look like they were made yesterday all the time you know?
Happy Holidays to you and yours Cedric my friend.
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Bart
Well-Known Member
Did you guys catch a cold or something? 
I consider a Coticule to be excellent when it comes to avoid chipping. Pasted stropping can indeed reduce/avoid chips even more, but my experience is that if it chips at the Coticule, it will chip form shaving as well.
A slightly steeper bevel angle (is there still room for tape, Ralfy? ) can sometimes deal with it. I've good success with that approach on TI sliverwings, with their hard and brittle steel.
But It's quite possible that your heavy pressured butchering at the lower grit hones has severe stresses in the thin steel of the edge. No solution but to cut past it.
I consider a Coticule to be excellent when it comes to avoid chipping. Pasted stropping can indeed reduce/avoid chips even more, but my experience is that if it chips at the Coticule, it will chip form shaving as well.
A slightly steeper bevel angle (is there still room for tape, Ralfy?
) can sometimes deal with it. I've good success with that approach on TI sliverwings, with their hard and brittle steel.But It's quite possible that your heavy pressured butchering at the lower grit hones has severe stresses in the thin steel of the edge. No solution but to cut past it.
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Bart said:Did you guys catch a cold or something?
Hahahahahah
Bart said:
Thats why I stuck with the coti
Bart said:A slightly steeper bevel angle (is there still room for tape, Ralfy?
I ended with 2 layers I could go again with 3 I guess but as said before anymore is just silly
Bart said:
What are you trying to say?? .... Bwhahahahaha......:w00t:
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
Ok I just got done with: 10 laps red dovo on hanging leather, 20 black dovo on hanging leather, 20 crox on hanging canvas and then 60 on plain leather, at 60X mag the edge looks tooth free and hht is a catch and pop at 1/2 inch from my fingers, I am shaving soon with the beautiful Louderback and Gilbert Co by G Wostenholm & Sons that my Alicia bought from Gary for me :thumbup: so I will give it a go atg on my neck.
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garyhaywood
Well-Known Member
hope you like it i found the shaves of this razor to be real efortless but i'm not a big fan of wedges this louder back [passed hht very easily also the tang is a bit short let us no how you get on with it cheers gary