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To all struggling Dilucotters

Bart said:
For those who care to know:

I took a digital kitchen scale today. Placed a Coticule on top and pressed the zero button. Next I took a razor (50g - 1.75 oz) and took it through the updated Dilucot. Pressure was the same during the entire procedure, except finishing with lightest possible pressure. The pressure remained in between 250g (8.8oz) and 300g (10.5oz).
Thought that might be of interest.:)

Kind regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...

That's a great idea! The biggest problem for me when I was new to honing was figuring out how much pressure to use. I assume this has been a problem for most people. I knew a lot of pressure was bad. Almost no pressure was OK but may take ages. The only advice you ever get is all this "Use only the weight of the blade" crap.
Given that pressure is quantifiable by definition, I can't think why anyone hasn't used a quantitative description before.
I can see this helping out a lot of new honers.
The simple fact of the matter is that it's quite easy to figure out how much pressure to use just by honing a few razors. Yes, your pressure should be more like what you use when writing with a pen and not as much as you use when sawing through timber, but after that its pretty personal.
 
Rosco said:
The simple fact of the matter is that it's quite easy to figure out how much pressure to use just by honing a few razors. Yes, your pressure should be more like what you use when writing with a pen and not as much as you use when sawing through timber, but after that its pretty personal.
Click to expand...
An excellent comparison.:) I've been thinking about a good comparison for a long time, but couldn't find any. "About the pressure used for engaging a spring-loaded ballpoint pen", was the best I could come up with.:D

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Bart said:
For those who care to know:

I took a digital kitchen scale today. Placed a Coticule on top and pressed the zero button. Next I took a razor (50g - 1.75 oz) and took it through the updated Dilucot. Pressure was the same during the entire procedure, except finishing with lightest possible pressure. The pressure remained in between 250g (8.8oz) and 300g (10.5oz).
Thought that might be of interest.:)

Kind regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...

Quantified/numeric info like this is REALLY helpful - thanks Bart!
 
Bart said:
I've been thinking about a good comparison for a long time, but couldn't find any. "About the pressure used for engaging a spring-loaded ballpoint pen", was the best I could come up with.:D
Click to expand...
About the pressure used for engaging a spring-loaded ballpoint pen.*

*) [sup]Results may vary depending on the steel the spring is made of.[/sup]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

regards,
Matt
 
That's a good description--I even tried the small scale & confirmed the pressure I was using was in that range!:D

Has anyone experimented w/ using (slightly!) less pressure on water only (halfstrokes) to dial in an edge a bit further? I've gotten a few shaving (including that fecking wedge--yay!:) ), but not as good as I know can be accomplished. I'm hesitant to use any more slurry (already did 1 quick rub & finished, which improved things) as I'm still not sure how much slurry dulling my #1 has.
 
PA23-250 said:
Has anyone experimented w/ using (slightly!) less pressure on water only (halfstrokes) to dial in an edge a bit further?
Click to expand...
That really depends on where you "lost" the edge while you were diluting. Dilution is really about slowly bringing the edge (barely) shaving to peak performance. If your edge was left behind halfway, that's where you have to pick it up again.

Just raise a thin slurry and perform the updated Dilucot: make sets of 15 strokes on both sides of the blade, add a good drop of water, repeat the set of 15 strokes, add a good drop of water, etc... Do this 7-10 times, till the abrasive feel of the Coticules resembles that of plain water. Add a good splash of water to the surface, perform another set of halfstrokes. Clean hone and razor under the tape and do your last set of halfstrokes. Use the same pressure throughout this entire procedure.
Now all you need to do is finish with low pressure (just the weight of the blade) and X-strokes this time.

That should bring you at the keenness limit of your hone. Should it unexpectedly not turn out so well, add a layer of tape and take the razor though the final stage of Unicot.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Ended up unicoting 2. Still not sure what I'm doing/not doing here. Razor was slightly better on HHT before going back. Maybe some (hone wiped off) water-only is in order on mine?:confused:

Although did find why I could never really get my TI super sharp. (Bevel tip degradation--it gets pretty wide in parts.)
 
PA23-250 said:
Ended up unicoting 2. Still not sure what I'm doing/not doing here. Razor was slightly better on HHT before going back.
Click to expand...

I don't really understand your exact problem is. Is Unicot giving you problems or does your Dilucot procedure doesn't lead to ample keenness?
PA23-250 said:
Maybe some (hone wiped off) water-only is in order on mine?:confused:
Click to expand...
I'm equally confused.:D On a Coticule you always need to finish on water.

PA23-250 said:
Although did find why I could never really get my TI super sharp. (Bevel tip degradation--it gets pretty wide in parts.)
Click to expand...
There a thread somewhere in the Coticule Tavern, where I explain that most TI's need 2 layers of tape.
I have no time searching it right now, but it's a recent thread of Gary.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
I was referring to actually rubbing the stone (razor too) to remove all traces of residual slurry before the final set of halfstrokes.

No, it's just the new dilucot that I'm not getting quite where I want.
 
PA23-250 said:
No, it's just the new dilucot that I'm not getting quite where I want.
Click to expand...
I've updated the Dilucot article in the Coticule Sharpening Academy.
Please let me know if you're still having problems or additional questions.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
very good up date bart. nicley explained. One thing i have found . Today was i rehoned my dovo on the hybrid. I finished on water and the hone still had resistants with water, even after a good rub. I spoke to you about this before. my razor just passed hht. I let the hone rest As i got busy with customers .I went back to the hone after worker with some water. the hone was now like honing on glass very smooth no resistants as the garnets had settled. I did one set of half strokes and 40 normal. The hht was perfect evn of less than thick hair. The sahve tonight was very smooth. I was very happy. I have found letting the hone rest is also beificial. then doing a thew more laps can help and improve.

Some hones loose the resistants straight away at the end , some don;t. This what i have noticed.
 
Very good article! Just double checked w/ that scale & I had it set wrong... It turns out I was using roughly double the pressure what you recommended...:blush: That I think explains a lot...
 
I knew it! I remember asking about this. Halfstrokes are king! Good work Sir Bart. :thumbup:
 
Took my Gunmetal (5/8 full hollow, pretty narrow bevel) through again. Got interrupted twice, but finished. HHT was not super great & TPT wasn't perfect either (I think I've found a way that works for me on that). Gave it a shave anyway. Certainly wasn't maxed out on keenness, but I ended up still getting a very good shave. Required some touchups, but I was amazed @ the amount of abuse I could heap on my face w/ no real consequences. (I couldn't even try that w/ my Nakayama or I'd get irritation!) This thing leaves smooth edges!

Decided to play w it again today & found something weird happening. Slurry was undercutting both sides beautifully until pretty late in the process. Then, it quit doing it on the toe (on one side only; the other side kept undercutting until the end, almost). I tried going back 3x 9including toe-only strokes on that side only), but it always started doing that on that one side. Finished anyway & it was not great. Ended up unicotting.

The razor doesn't have any real warp (that I can see--it's never an issue when I use my Kiita--no roll required @ all), so why whould it only do it on one side?:confused: This is weird.
 
PA23-250 said:
Decided to play w it again today & found something weird happening. Slurry was undercutting both sides beautifully until pretty late in the process. Then, it quit doing it on the toe (on one side only; the other side kept undercutting until the end, almost). I tried going back 3x 9including toe-only strokes on that side only), but it always started doing that on that one side.
The razor doesn't have any real warp (that I can see--it's never an issue when I use my Kiita--no roll required @ all), so why whould it only do it on one side?:confused: This is weird.
Click to expand...
I get that all the time. Upon finishing, when the coat of water gets thin, some parts of the edge undercut the fluid very well, and others don't. It usually differs at the other side of the blade. I have no idea why it happens, but at that part of the process, it doesn't seem to make a difference, as the blade will give me the same HHT-score along the entire edge.

I think, that if you make the very smallest possible error with lifting the spine, or even rolling X-stroke with the blade held at a varying angle, you'll create a "nano-bevel" at steeper angle. That microbevel isn't easily removed, because the rest of the bevel must be honed down again, and not only at that local spot, but at full length of the razor.
If the issue happened only sparsely, that small anomaly won't disrupt keenness, though it doesn't undercut the fluid, because the very tip of the bevel floats above the hone's surface. If your honing stroke lack consistency, and it happens too often, there won't be a keen anomaly, but a round one, due to the small deviation in the honing stroke not always happening at the same degree (angle). In that case the keenness will suffer.

Focus on 2 things: make sure the razor stays flat on the hone, and perform the stroke perpendicular with the hone. Or when you decide to sway, do so in a very repetitive and uniform manner.

PA23-250 said:
Ended up unicotting.
Click to expand...
That's what I did 9 out of 10 times in the beginning. Then it became 8 out of 10, later 7 out of 10, etc. Just to point out that Dilucot, in spite of being easier with the updated procedure, takes practice and experience.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Just realized, I've been neglecting my Kiita! Another option to try if dilucot ends up not quite where I want it.:D

(I'm try the hybrid side tonight.)
 
Abso-bloody-lutely perfect shave on the W&B using the new dilucot! Perfect!!:w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

The slurry/water kept undercutting till the very end--even on water. HHT looked promising & improved still further after stropping. Probably the best damn shave I've gotten on that razor. My Kiita shaves just as close, but my L#1 is w/o a doubt smoother (good, thought the Kiita edge is).

Bart, I definitely noticed your observation about WTG--it does seem a tiny bit easier (less resistance) off the Jnat, but ATG is exactly the same.

Felt as though I hadn't even shaved! :thumbup:
 
Okay, so I finally sat down with three razors I got from eBay (full hollow, nothing complicated). The results are good. Not outstanding as in "honed by Bart", but better than anything I've managed with a Coticule alone so far. Thanks a lot for putting all this information together.
 
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