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Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal
- Thread starter JimR
- Start Date
jonnyangel
Active Member
The diamond plate will have to work for now. But, yes there are some issues with controlling the slurry. I know Im wasting Kiita for now. However, the results are encouraging.
Here's what I did
1.) Used my Shaptons up until the 8k was popping arm hair. Then, I went to the Kiita with the medium slurry stone that I received with my hone. Worked up a heavy slurry and honed until it broke down and turned grey. Repeated this once more to make sure the bevel had no more shine and was all Kiita Haze.
2.) Rinse and worked up the slurry with the DMT. It was pretty thick so I added alil water. Then, honed until it thickened up again. Diluted until it was almost just water.
3.) Stropped 100 times on latigo and HHT. Came out to be almost a HHT 4.
Note-The slurry with the stone is yellow-ish milk, but very dark grey with the diamond hone. Not really sure what to make of that.
Here's what I did
1.) Used my Shaptons up until the 8k was popping arm hair. Then, I went to the Kiita with the medium slurry stone that I received with my hone. Worked up a heavy slurry and honed until it broke down and turned grey. Repeated this once more to make sure the bevel had no more shine and was all Kiita Haze.
2.) Rinse and worked up the slurry with the DMT. It was pretty thick so I added alil water. Then, honed until it thickened up again. Diluted until it was almost just water.
3.) Stropped 100 times on latigo and HHT. Came out to be almost a HHT 4.
Note-The slurry with the stone is yellow-ish milk, but very dark grey with the diamond hone. Not really sure what to make of that.
jonnyangel
Active Member
Is that as bad as it sounds?
Bart
Well-Known Member
Not for the honing job itself. The nickel only discolors the slurry, perhaps alters the consistency a little, but not something that I would expect to throw a monkey wrench into the honing process.jonnyangel said:
The longterm effect on the DMT is an entirely different matter.
Bart.
JimR
Well-Known Member
Gentlemen, thanks for your comments.
My barber would fail me...This razor failed the shave test. It shaved, but not that wicked smooth edge it should have--and I know why. I didn't inspect both sides of the bevel well enough--the color is not deep enough on the back of the bevel. Of course, I forgot that this razor was Tamahagane; it's hard steel, and should take at least 5 repetitions, instead of the basic 3. And this is how I learn...so slowly.
Depends. What color are your hones?
The slurry stone you have is a Nagura--they are VERY soft. Much softer than the Honzan hones (which yours might be/probably is) so when you use one, your slurry will primarily be Nagura. So the pale yellow is probably coming off of the Nagura.
With the DMT, you're getting pure honzan...or you should be. So if your honzan is NOT dark grey, then it might indeed be nickel from your DMT.
Also, in your honing process--when you honed up to 8K, and then went to the honzan with the Nagura, you went backwards. The Chu-nagura (tenjou, like you have, or mejiro) slurry is roughly equivalent in speed to a Japanese 6K. In fact, I would recommend you try this--if your razor needs a bevel set, 1K - Nagura+Honzan - DMT+Honzan. If it just needs honing--i.e. no damage, but it won't really shave well, then DMT+Honzan. If it needs sharpening (i.e. no damage, but it won't cut anything) then Nagura+Honzan, then DMT+Honzan.
My barber would fail me...This razor failed the shave test. It shaved, but not that wicked smooth edge it should have--and I know why. I didn't inspect both sides of the bevel well enough--the color is not deep enough on the back of the bevel. Of course, I forgot that this razor was Tamahagane; it's hard steel, and should take at least 5 repetitions, instead of the basic 3. And this is how I learn...so slowly.
jonnyangel said:
Depends. What color are your hones?
The slurry stone you have is a Nagura--they are VERY soft. Much softer than the Honzan hones (which yours might be/probably is) so when you use one, your slurry will primarily be Nagura. So the pale yellow is probably coming off of the Nagura.
With the DMT, you're getting pure honzan...or you should be. So if your honzan is NOT dark grey, then it might indeed be nickel from your DMT.
Also, in your honing process--when you honed up to 8K, and then went to the honzan with the Nagura, you went backwards. The Chu-nagura (tenjou, like you have, or mejiro) slurry is roughly equivalent in speed to a Japanese 6K. In fact, I would recommend you try this--if your razor needs a bevel set, 1K - Nagura+Honzan - DMT+Honzan. If it just needs honing--i.e. no damage, but it won't really shave well, then DMT+Honzan. If it needs sharpening (i.e. no damage, but it won't cut anything) then Nagura+Honzan, then DMT+Honzan.
Bart
Well-Known Member
Today, I finally had a few hours time to sit down with a razor and my Nakayama hone.
The razor was a Bartputzer model 1930. For those interested it's a similar one as shown and described in this thread on Badger&Blade. A picture of my Nakayama can be seen a few posts back in this thread.
I started out with dulling the Bartputzer on a bottle. (it was actually just in need of a touch-up, before I performed the downstroke on glass). I made a decent slurry on my Nakayama. I used a dmt-325. Could have used a DMT-1200 as well, but that one leaves the slurry in a dark gray state (as mentioned a few posts back). I don't like to start out with discolored slurry, because that renders it impossible to see if the actual honing is removing any steel.
Once I had a good orange slurry with consistency of coffee cream, I started working with half strokes. I aimed my strokes at smearing the slurry around as much as possible, because I believe, based on Jim's descriptions, that the slurry needs to be properly broken down. For doing that, I sort of thought about the spine as a squeegee, that can be used to drag the slurry over the surface. Of course, the edge needs to travel with some of the slurry as well, but at the turning point, it's not too difficult to catch part of the slurry with the spine.
After 3 sets of 30 halfstrokes, the slurry was of a brownish middle gray. I changed to regular X-strokes.
So far, I kept the slurry from dehydrating by adding a sparse thrifty drop of water when needed. Not aimed to dilute, but only to make up for evaporation (or is it adsortion?).
After about 60 regular X-strokes, I allowed the slurry to dry, till the point it became grainy. At that point, I performed a TPT. It felt sticky as a very keen edge. I cleaned the razor and did a HHT. Popped hair very consistently at about 10mm from the holding point. I stropped 60 linen/60 leather. HHT level 4. Amazing.
Under magnification the edge looked sandblasted, very similar to the pattern left by slurry on a Coticule.
I'm sure a test shave would have revealed a very smooth result. But I was not ready to test shave.
Against all better judgment, I copied the entire procedure on a Coticule of the same dimensions. I couldn't remember when the last time was that I ever allowed slurry to dry on a Coticule. After all, every newbie quickly finds out the effect it has on an edge. Theoretically, Coticule garnets do no break down, so there's no real basis for this exercise. However, I wanted to confirm it at least once in practice. So I copied the above procedure on a Coticule... and ended up with a razor that would not shave arm hair. I did not even pre-dull it after the Nakayama.
Quite expected, but it left me with the opportunity to try if I could repeat my initial result on the Nakayama.
For the third time I honed. I took me a bit longer this time: I probably should have stayed a bit longer at the halfstrokes, a mistake I payed with extra time later on during the honing process. Yet in the end, I found the same HHT-results, coming off halfway dried, broken down slurry.
This time I test shaved. It was a very keen, crispy edge. Went through the stubble with no effort at all. A bit more sting from the alum block than what I'm used to. But otherwise a very smooth, close and comfortable shave.
Best regards,
Bart.
The razor was a Bartputzer model 1930. For those interested it's a similar one as shown and described in this thread on Badger&Blade. A picture of my Nakayama can be seen a few posts back in this thread.
I started out with dulling the Bartputzer on a bottle. (it was actually just in need of a touch-up, before I performed the downstroke on glass). I made a decent slurry on my Nakayama. I used a dmt-325. Could have used a DMT-1200 as well, but that one leaves the slurry in a dark gray state (as mentioned a few posts back). I don't like to start out with discolored slurry, because that renders it impossible to see if the actual honing is removing any steel.
Once I had a good orange slurry with consistency of coffee cream, I started working with half strokes. I aimed my strokes at smearing the slurry around as much as possible, because I believe, based on Jim's descriptions, that the slurry needs to be properly broken down. For doing that, I sort of thought about the spine as a squeegee, that can be used to drag the slurry over the surface. Of course, the edge needs to travel with some of the slurry as well, but at the turning point, it's not too difficult to catch part of the slurry with the spine.
After 3 sets of 30 halfstrokes, the slurry was of a brownish middle gray. I changed to regular X-strokes.
So far, I kept the slurry from dehydrating by adding a sparse thrifty drop of water when needed. Not aimed to dilute, but only to make up for evaporation (or is it adsortion?).
After about 60 regular X-strokes, I allowed the slurry to dry, till the point it became grainy. At that point, I performed a TPT. It felt sticky as a very keen edge. I cleaned the razor and did a HHT. Popped hair very consistently at about 10mm from the holding point. I stropped 60 linen/60 leather. HHT level 4. Amazing.
Under magnification the edge looked sandblasted, very similar to the pattern left by slurry on a Coticule.
I'm sure a test shave would have revealed a very smooth result. But I was not ready to test shave.
Against all better judgment, I copied the entire procedure on a Coticule of the same dimensions. I couldn't remember when the last time was that I ever allowed slurry to dry on a Coticule. After all, every newbie quickly finds out the effect it has on an edge. Theoretically, Coticule garnets do no break down, so there's no real basis for this exercise. However, I wanted to confirm it at least once in practice. So I copied the above procedure on a Coticule... and ended up with a razor that would not shave arm hair. I did not even pre-dull it after the Nakayama.
Quite expected, but it left me with the opportunity to try if I could repeat my initial result on the Nakayama.
For the third time I honed. I took me a bit longer this time: I probably should have stayed a bit longer at the halfstrokes, a mistake I payed with extra time later on during the honing process. Yet in the end, I found the same HHT-results, coming off halfway dried, broken down slurry.
This time I test shaved. It was a very keen, crispy edge. Went through the stubble with no effort at all. A bit more sting from the alum block than what I'm used to. But otherwise a very smooth, close and comfortable shave.
Best regards,
Bart.
Bart
Well-Known Member
I bought it about 2 years ago from SRP-member "Oldschool" at his little online store: http://oldschoolshaving.net/Japanese_hones.htmlrichmondesi said:
Here's his official description:
"Maruichi hone with Nihon Kamisori stamp. This hone is Nashiji and has a beautiful purple colouring, it comes pre-attached to a wooden board.This hone is very hard and has quite a fast cutting power.Dimensions:19x4x3CMPrice:$350"
Here's the original picture he had on his website:
That's about all I know about it. It generates an orange slurry, lots of draw and a very faint sensation of abrasion.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Bart
Well-Known Member
Your Coticule is without doubt a much faster cutter than my Nakayama Ralfy.tat2Ralfy said:Fast to cut and finish these little beautiesonly having coti experience I find the low lap count amazing
When used with water only (which is what Oldschool recommends) it demands an edge of about 8K synthetic level to yield any meaningful results. On a good slurry it starts very promising - albeit slower as a typical Coticule with slurry -, but the slurry looses its cutting power rather soon. I now see that's actually the whole deal. The slurry needs to be refined to use these hones well.
Unless you're just using it to polish an already excellent edge a bit further, which is how many guys seem to be using these hones nowadays.
Kind regards,
Bart.
JimR
Well-Known Member
Bart, I'm very glad to hear you could get results using these methods. It's good to get confirmation that it works on more than just these two stones.
Exactly. That's what my barber meant when he told me last time, "Now you just need to learn to use your nagura right".
When to refresh slurry to continue honing, and when to let it break down further to polish--that's the trick.
It sounds like you did pretty darned well with it, too...
Bart said:Your Coticule is without doubt a much faster cutter than my Nakayama Ralfy.tat2Ralfy said:Fast to cut and finish these little beauties
When used with water only (which is what Oldschool recommends) it demands an edge of about 8K synthetic level to yield any meaningful results. On a good slurry it starts very promising - albeit slower as a typical Coticule with slurry -, but the slurry looses its cutting power rather soon. I now see that's actually the whole deal. The slurry needs to be refined to use these hones well.
Unless you're just using it to polish an already excellent edge a bit further, which is how many guys seem to be using these hones nowadays.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Exactly. That's what my barber meant when he told me last time, "Now you just need to learn to use your nagura right".
When to refresh slurry to continue honing, and when to let it break down further to polish--that's the trick.
It sounds like you did pretty darned well with it, too...
jonnyangel
Active Member
JimR said:Bart, I'm very glad to hear you could get results using these methods. It's good to get confirmation that it works on more than just these two stones.
Bart said:Your Coticule is without doubt a much faster cutter than my Nakayama Ralfy.tat2Ralfy said:Fast to cut and finish these little beauties
When used with water only (which is what Oldschool recommends) it demands an edge of about 8K synthetic level to yield any meaningful results. On a good slurry it starts very promising - albeit slower as a typical Coticule with slurry -, but the slurry looses its cutting power rather soon. I now see that's actually the whole deal. The slurry needs to be refined to use these hones well.
Unless you're just using it to polish an already excellent edge a bit further, which is how many guys seem to be using these hones nowadays.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Exactly. That's what my barber meant when he told me last time, "Now you just need to learn to use your nagura right".
When to refresh slurry to continue honing, and when to let it break down further to polish--that's the trick.
It sounds like you did pretty darned well with it, too...
Gentleman,
Im having good luck with these methods as well. Going from the Nagura to the Diamond plate has worked out quite well for me so far. Visual inspection for that hazy and sandblasted work seems to be a good indicator of the keenness of edge. Im still getting to know my stone, and Im not sure about finishing on just water. I wonder if the broken down slurry will work its way into the surface of the hone and allow for a water only finish. Just curious: Do you find differences between the Coti and Nakayama?
Truly, Jonathan
Bart
Well-Known Member
jonnyangel said:
The billion dollar question.
Well... as this thread has been demonstrating from its very start, both types of hones are quite different tools.
Before making any statements let's make something clear first:
Traditionally razors were honed on only one hone (unless there was damage to deal with, but that's called "repair" instead of "honing".) This kind of razor honing demands for a process that starts out with steady steel removal and gradually slows down, sneaking up to the finest possible edge later in the process.
For doing so, both types of rock require different methods. Coticules rely on slurry dilution to refine the edge. The Japanese hones rely on slurry disintegration to get a finer edge.
In more recent times, these traditional ways have been abandoned for a multiple hones approach (often with synthetic hones). It started out with two (the Norton 4/8K comes to mind), later one needed to add a 1K hone to the arsenal, and nowadays we've arrived at 1K, 4K, 8K and 16K (or a similar progression). Personally (I'm going to be bold here), that makes me think of a particular manufacturer of razor blades, that started with putting 1 blade in a holder, later 2 blades in a cartridge, followed by three to arrive at five...
The traditional (read: natural) hones were dismissed to only perform a final polish on an already perfectly keen edge.
I'm not claiming that all this doesn't work, as I equally was never one to claim that a Fusion is not capable of one very fine shave. (maybe it's best to admit at this point that I have never shaved with any of these cartridge razors
)For mere finishing, both Coticules and Japanese hones can be used with only water on the surface of the hone. Japanese hones are incredibly hyped for that (probably helped by their heavy price tags). On both specimen I used (my own and one I was able to lend for a few months), I always wondered what all the fuzz was about. They delivered nice edges, keen and smooth, but not smoother than the same razors finished on any Coticule. Slightly harsher in fact.
All this was before Jim, assisted by his barber, arrived at the scene to revive ancient methods. I've only shaved once with my traditionally honed Nakayama edge, but it definitely was different than my previous "Nakayama-on-water" edges. My Bartputzer was keener than ever, perhaps the slightest tad sharper than I can get it with a Coticule. (Jim had a similar impression when I sent him a Coticule honed Heljestrand a while ago) That's not world-shocking news for me. I can surpass Coticule sharpness with a Chosera 10K or with lapping film too. But I never cared for those edges, because they're harsh and abrasive to my skin. Yesterday's Nakayama edge was not as smooth as what I'm used to get, coming off a Coticule, but it was not that far off. I had a 2-day stubble to wipe out. A good Coticule edge always leaves my face unaffected afterwards. With yesterday's edge, there was a bit of neck redness that lasted for about 10-15 minutes after the shave. And the accompanying alum sting. But my shaving routine is not used to this edge, and it certainly is much smoother than the aforementioned synthetic edges. My face feels great today. I might shave again with the Bartputzer later tonight.
Those are my very first impressions, with one razor honed on my Nakayama. Please read my statements about the shave accordingly.
Best regards,
Bart.
Jim, Bart, this thread is making me want to take up the Nakayama more than anything I've yet read on the subject! Price-wise, I was thinking of this one to start (maybe adding another bigger one later on). http://oldschoolshaving.net/Hone_4.html
As far as slurry stones go, do you think a credit card sized DMT-C would work? I have DMTs if I need to do serious bevel work. And how fast do you think a Nakayama (using slurry here) would be @ wiping out those deep DMT scratches?
I'm really intrigued by this traditional way of using these things; not just as a finisher... Why do all naturals get relegated to nothing but finishers these days? I'm sure some coticules etc. are easier to use than others (feedback, mostly), but we've all seen it can be done... I use a Norton too sometimes, but the idea of using a single natural stone is just too alluring!
As far as slurry stones go, do you think a credit card sized DMT-C would work? I have DMTs if I need to do serious bevel work. And how fast do you think a Nakayama (using slurry here) would be @ wiping out those deep DMT scratches?
I'm really intrigued by this traditional way of using these things; not just as a finisher... Why do all naturals get relegated to nothing but finishers these days? I'm sure some coticules etc. are easier to use than others (feedback, mostly), but we've all seen it can be done... I use a Norton too sometimes, but the idea of using a single natural stone is just too alluring!
mitchshrader
Well-Known Member
There is a risk that one may become especially fond of various different hones, to the point of acquiring 'just one more' on a regular basis.
I'm being dragged into straights because I ran out of kitchen knives, and ran out of space to store any more kitchen sharpenables. Besides, all those knives were crowding my rocks.
But that thing about 'just one rock', uhm.. that part is subject to change.
I'm being dragged into straights because I ran out of kitchen knives, and ran out of space to store any more kitchen sharpenables. Besides, all those knives were crowding my rocks.
But that thing about 'just one rock', uhm.. that part is subject to change.
StraightRazorDave
Well-Known Member
Since this is a thread dedicated to Japanese natural hones, I'll post my results.
I got a Nakayama Maruichi Kiita from OLD_SCHOOL last summer, and I've posted my results several times over at SRP. But since I frequent this site now, it's only fair I post about it here too!
It was described as a hard and slow stone (relative to other nakayamas I assume), and it does feel like a slow stone compared to my coticules, but I really have no other Japanese stones to compare it too. I also got a little slurry stone from O_S that is just a little piece of nakayama, and it looks VERY much like my stone in colour, so it's a good match.
Although I have just given razors 50-100 laps on plain water on my Nakayama as a finish, I've found that using slurry first (created with small Nakayama piece) and then diluting it slowly as I start to notice it changing colour produces the best finish. Perhaps that has something to do with my stone being a slower one, I don't know, as I said this is my only Nakayama.
When I do this dilution on slurry on my Nakayama, I start off with a fairly light milkly slurry. I find it takes a lot of rubbing of the small piece of Nakayama on my stone to make a slurry. The slurry colout btw is a very pale colour, very similar to the colour of a light slurry on a coticule. That is the colour of the slurry on mine, I bet some are different. I do 50-100 laps on it with this slurry, and I start to notice it turning a little grey. I add water whenever the surface starts to dry a little, and just add water when it gets a little dry. When I see there's no slurry being pushed in front of the bevel, I just rinse the hone off and give it another 50 laps or so on a freshly washed hone to ensure no slurry contamination. Basically, I treat my dilution the exact same way I would do a dilucot.
One thing that I've noticed a couple of time while using the diluyama (dilution+Nakayama ) is that a few times I'm left with a bevel that has an extra shiny line right at the edge. The few times it's happened I just drop back down to a coticule and give it a bunch of laps on water until that little extra shiny bit is gone. It wasn't until yesterday that I figured out exactly why that was happening. Too much pressure!!!! I don't use a lot of pressure when I hone, but I remember Bart mentioning that the Nakayama has a way of "sucking" the blade close, and I have noticed not. I think this "suction" makes using light pressure even more important.
Well on a razor that I got this little shiny bit of metal at the edge, I got rid of it using a coticule, then went through the dilution process on my Nakayama just to try it out. But this time I paid crucial attention to my pressure, and realized that I could have always used less pressure that what I was using. After going through the EXACT process that gave my the apparently overhoned edge earlier, it gave me a fabulously sharp edge with a uniformly hazy bevel with NO shiny bit at the edge. Oh, and I JUST shaved with that razor, it was so crazy sharp and smooth is was just like I wiped the hair off my face.
So, after all of that rambling, my message to Nakayama users is to be very mindful of the pressure that they use when honing on them. I'm sure each hone performs a bit differently, and as I already mentioned I have no other experience with Japanese naturals, but I still believe being mindful of the pressure is a good rule of thumb.
As far as the difference between a Nakayama edge and a coticule edge, I do notice a difference. I honestly prefer an edge that I honed on the Nakayama after the coticule. It's not a huge difference, but I do prefer it. I find that it produces less resistance when I shave with the same smooth results. I still love the coticule, don't get me wrong!!!
Sorry for the long post! I am quite passionate about natural stones. B)
Dave
I got a Nakayama Maruichi Kiita from OLD_SCHOOL last summer, and I've posted my results several times over at SRP. But since I frequent this site now, it's only fair I post about it here too!
It was described as a hard and slow stone (relative to other nakayamas I assume), and it does feel like a slow stone compared to my coticules, but I really have no other Japanese stones to compare it too. I also got a little slurry stone from O_S that is just a little piece of nakayama, and it looks VERY much like my stone in colour, so it's a good match.
Although I have just given razors 50-100 laps on plain water on my Nakayama as a finish, I've found that using slurry first (created with small Nakayama piece) and then diluting it slowly as I start to notice it changing colour produces the best finish. Perhaps that has something to do with my stone being a slower one, I don't know, as I said this is my only Nakayama.
When I do this dilution on slurry on my Nakayama, I start off with a fairly light milkly slurry. I find it takes a lot of rubbing of the small piece of Nakayama on my stone to make a slurry. The slurry colout btw is a very pale colour, very similar to the colour of a light slurry on a coticule. That is the colour of the slurry on mine, I bet some are different. I do 50-100 laps on it with this slurry, and I start to notice it turning a little grey. I add water whenever the surface starts to dry a little, and just add water when it gets a little dry. When I see there's no slurry being pushed in front of the bevel, I just rinse the hone off and give it another 50 laps or so on a freshly washed hone to ensure no slurry contamination. Basically, I treat my dilution the exact same way I would do a dilucot.
One thing that I've noticed a couple of time while using the diluyama (dilution+Nakayama
) is that a few times I'm left with a bevel that has an extra shiny line right at the edge. The few times it's happened I just drop back down to a coticule and give it a bunch of laps on water until that little extra shiny bit is gone. It wasn't until yesterday that I figured out exactly why that was happening. Too much pressure!!!! I don't use a lot of pressure when I hone, but I remember Bart mentioning that the Nakayama has a way of "sucking" the blade close, and I have noticed not. I think this "suction" makes using light pressure even more important. Well on a razor that I got this little shiny bit of metal at the edge, I got rid of it using a coticule, then went through the dilution process on my Nakayama just to try it out. But this time I paid crucial attention to my pressure, and realized that I could have always used less pressure that what I was using. After going through the EXACT process that gave my the apparently overhoned edge earlier, it gave me a fabulously sharp edge with a uniformly hazy bevel with NO shiny bit at the edge. Oh, and I JUST shaved with that razor, it was so crazy sharp and smooth is was just like I wiped the hair off my face.
So, after all of that rambling, my message to Nakayama users is to be very mindful of the pressure that they use when honing on them. I'm sure each hone performs a bit differently, and as I already mentioned I have no other experience with Japanese naturals, but I still believe being mindful of the pressure is a good rule of thumb.
As far as the difference between a Nakayama edge and a coticule edge, I do notice a difference. I honestly prefer an edge that I honed on the Nakayama after the coticule. It's not a huge difference, but I do prefer it. I find that it produces less resistance when I shave with the same smooth results. I still love the coticule, don't get me wrong!!!
Sorry for the long post! I am quite passionate about natural stones. B)
Dave