ShavingUniverse.com

Register a free account now!

If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.

Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal

Dave,
great observation and post.

I want to go on record here also. I can see you might be interested in switching to the Japanese stones at some point. So I publically have first shot at any coticules you might get want to get rid of.....Smile..:)

Now I know you might think this will never happen. But just in case it does......

Ray
 
PA23-250 said:
As far as slurry stones go, do you think a credit card sized DMT-C would work?
Erik,

Yes it works. Better than a DMT-E, actually.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Sounds good so far. Now I'm wondering if the stone would work @ its optimum using its own slurry, or whether I'd really need a honyama to get the sharpest possible edge... I think Bart, you said it was a great edge...? Jim, what are your thoughts in general? I'm really thinking of talking to Old School... (HAD: people warned me it might be like this sometimes...:lol: )
 
PA23-250 said:
Sounds good so far. Now I'm wondering if the stone would work @ its optimum using its own slurry, or whether I'd really need a honyama to get the sharpest possible edge... I think Bart, you said it was a great edge...? Jim, what are your thoughts in general? I'm really thinking of talking to Old School... (HAD: people warned me it might be like this sometimes...:lol: )

I think that the slurry from the DMC would be fine...the small form honzan was just the best way to get a pure slurry back in the day, I think. I mean, this all comes form 30-40 years ago: no diamond hones back then, I reckon.

Give it a try! Heck, I'm considering getting one of those DMCs myself.
 
I did some looking last night and found that DMT makes mini hones that are .75 by 2 inches with a handle. Best part is they are around 6-8 US. How can you beat that?
 
PA23-250 said:
Perfect! As far as stones now, what do you recommend? The one I linked to http://oldschoolshaving.net/Hone_4.html or this one http://oldschoolshaving.net/Hone_2.html as it looks closer to a "razor sized" hone...? It is a bit more, though.

The wider of the two stones were cut for honing western straights from what I understand. JimR can comment because I think one of his is similar demension to it. However, the narrow stone is plenty to hone a razor with a confident X-Stroke. My stone is about 6cm wide and I could so it with half that much. In the end, its up to you.

Speaking of JimR. Question #10 :lol: The video of your barber finishing a razor. I was curious about the use of wide circle strokes during finishing. Normally, I set the bevel with a combo of circles and X-Strokes, but when I get off the 1K Ill only use X-Strokes. Just curious why.
 
PA23-250 said:
Perfect! As far as stones now, what do you recommend? The one I linked to http://oldschoolshaving.net/Hone_4.html or this one http://oldschoolshaving.net/Hone_2.html as it looks closer to a "razor sized" hone...? It is a bit more, though.

PA, I find the razor sized hone to be very comfortable, I can hold it in my hand and hone. But the linger one should be fine, as Jon said, for x stroke honing. The reason for the price difference is probably the lack of stamps on the longer hone, but you'd have to ask O_S about that. Word of warning--don't mention my name when you talk to him.

Jon, as for circles vs. x strokes--whatever floats your boat. The circles are just the way he rolls. I think it might actually have something to do with maximizing hone contact on the shorter hones--a simple x stroke will have much less linear contact with the hone than a circle, on a shorter hone like that. But he told me anything is ok, as long as you're comfortable with it.
 
They're both about the same length (~15cm). Should be plenty. I'm leaning heavily toward the bigger one because of greater versatility. They're also about the same thickness.

Jim, I won't mention you as per your request:) , but do you think I should mention that I intend to raise a slurry on it? On SRP, he doesn't seem too keen on the idea of slurry on naturals in general... (None of them do, actually.)
 
PA23-250 said:
Jim, I won't mention you as per your request:) , but do you think I should mention that I intend to raise a slurry on it? On SRP, he doesn't seem too keen on the idea of slurry on naturals in general... (None of them do, actually.)
I can't speak for Jim, but I believe that if you behave "apologetic", expect to treated with contempt. :D

I bought my Nakayama at Old_school's, and his service was outstanding. He answered all my questions to the best of his knowledge, also those I posed long after my purchase. I followed his advice and also that offered by others. Tried a few tricks of my own. Got good results, but certainly not keener that what I get with a Coticule. Nor smoother for that matter. Then Jim, started this thread. The results I got by following his suggestions are without any doubt better than they were before. Critics should better not be so fast to dismiss...

Bart.
 
I emailed him last night about the big one & he answered all my questions. I just asked him if he recommended a slurry stone & he said not unless I wanted to do the grunt work of setting bevels w/ it (Which I do:) )

I'm definitely going to try both ways, probably 1st as a finisher, then as Jim does it. Only problem is this impending purchase is making me want a Kanayama strop! :lol:
 
PA23-250 said:
I emailed him last night about the big one & he answered all my questions. I just asked him if he recommended a slurry stone & he said not unless I wanted to do the grunt work of setting bevels w/ it (Which I do:) )

I'm definitely going to try both ways, probably 1st as a finisher, then as Jim does it. Only problem is this impending purchase is making me want a Kanayama strop! :lol:

PA, I hope you can get a good stone! Perhaps I should just make it clear, I do NO hning on my Japanese hones without slurry. Not just beveling, but also touchups/fine honing. So it's a huge range.

Also, just a point: O_S and I have had our dsagreements, and he has refused to sell to people because of their connection to me, so it's in your interest to disavow any connection to my heresies. :)

i'll be doing a more in-depth post about what I think is happening with slurry here, but I'm on my iPhone now and I hate long typing on it. I wonder why coticule.be is blocked at my office?
 
Well, I don't think he goes on here & I've never posted anything about slurry on Jnats on SRP so, hopefully my attempt @ heresy will not become known...

Oh, & my real name is Erik. A PA23-250 is a Piper Aztec, the airplane I got my multiengine rating in--I have a bit of a soft spot for it. :)

EDIT: I've been reading over @ Japan Blade & they recommend using distilled water exclusively. Does it really matter or no?
 
PA23-250 said:
Well, I don't think he goes on here & I've never posted anything about slurry on Jnats on SRP so, hopefully my attempt @ heresy will not become known...

Oh, & my real name is Erik. A PA23-250 is a Piper Aztec, the airplane I got my multiengine rating in--I have a bit of a soft spot for it. :)

EDIT: I've been reading over @ Japan Blade & they recommend using distilled water exclusively. Does it really matter or no?

Eric, good to know you. ;)

You know, I've heard the distilled water thing a couple of times and I don't honestly know. It sounds like nonsense to me--I mean, if your water is going to harm your stone, then of course you'd want to protect it, but...

The argument I heard was that the lime deposits left when the water evaporated would eventually grow and split the hone. Which I don't for a minute buy. But hey, if you pay $1000+ for a stone, I could understand handling it with kid gloves.

The guy I got my stones from used his for 30+ years with tap water. They seem fine to me...but of course, we all have different water and different relationships to our tools.
 
C'mon Jim, let's be real. Distilled water? That allows for only one reaction: :D :D :D :D :D :D

It's the sharpening equivalent of oxigen-free copper in speaker cables. Have you ever tried honing under a layer of nitrogen? I'm selling these translucent pyramidal storage boxes for hones, that can be filled with nitrogen to store your hones. 199$. And you should also try my special Humbug (tm) honing fluid, based on Coticule powder and chicken droppings, and some other secret ingredients. Only 99$ per bottle.

There are boundaries to what I'm prepared to treat with seriousness.

:D

Bart.
 
Bart, what's the grit rating of the aforementioned coticule powder & poultry excrement?:D :D :D And will I "overhone" on it easily...?:lol: And do I need lots & lots of stones, all the way up to 0.1 diamond lapping film followed by stropping on newspaper before going to the powder? :D
 
Actually the PE (Poultry Exrements) need to be lathered directly onto the face. The Coticule powder is then lightly dusted on top. The used razor will become sharper during the shave. Each time you shave the edge will become better.
Every 6 months you might want to dull the razor a little on a piece of polar bear claw, that we have on special sale for that purpose (the polar bears are properly sedated before the extraction and the Inuit hunters have assured us that the claws grow back and the animals experience no ill effects). The piece of claw sells at $49, which is a bargain, considering they last a lifetime, and can also be used to scratch your back when it itches.

Hope this helps,
Bart.
 
Dont anyone on here ever tell me I am "Special" ever again :rolleyes:

P.S I can get the P.E powder cheaper, but its not as sharp....lol
 
Bart,

Damn! I paid $200 for my PECD (Poultry Excrement Coticule Dust)...I got ripped off!

;)

OK, well, I was trying to be open minded. Trying not to be too judgmental, you know. But I was desperately trying to suppress the sound of my eyes rolling...

The funny thing is, the person who was telling me to use distilled water ALSO adds dish detergent to it. Soooo...pure water with soap and solvents added?

Eeep.

So Eric, I would say water is water, unless you live in a place where the water isn't fit to use for anything (like St. Petersburg, Russia...comes out of the tap looking like tea.)
 
OK, here's what I THINK is happening with slurry on these hones.

I know that this is PURE speculation, it's not grounded on a whole lot of empirical evidence, but I think I'm on solid ground.

So here's the deal. In an old thread on another board, a member mentioned that the particles in a Japanese natural hone are kind of flattish, "like potato chips" he said. Later, I saw a picture taken with SEM of nakayama slurry and that was exactly what they looked like...They're sort of curvy plates, not spiky blocks or balls. Thus they don't gouge out pieces of steel, they scoop out pieces of steel. Thus the legendary smoothness of the hones--it's not a jagged saw, it's a smoother, wavy line.

However, I believe this can only happen effectively with slurry. If you're just dragging the razor over the hone, then you just have the particles sticking straight out of the stone--like a synthetic. The particles are very fine, but not able to orient to the steel in an effective way.

However, when we release the particles in a heavy slurry, then the action of the edge in the liquid helps flatten the particles in relation to the edge, and lets them do their job of slicing away the steel to leave a smooth, keen edge.

I ALSO believe (in a less firm way, but the idea is growing on me) that even with other hones with similar makeup--not necessarily flattish particles, but a fragile honing medium, i.e. Silica shale(for example, the Thuringian hones).

The release of slurry allows more particle contact, in a less rigid form and thus with less "damage" to the edge, for lack of a better word.

But again, this is pure speculation and I can't at all defend it against other attitudes. I only post it because, hey, why not?

What do you think?
 
Back
Top