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Honing On Japanese Natural Hones, an ongoing journal

Hey Telly,

Yep, I've been using the stones you sent me. I showed Jim a pic of them and he identified them as asagi shards and true nagura pieces.

I've since passed on most of them to other people, but I could break off a piece of asagi if you need one (I kept one large piece).....the nagura pieces are all gone, apart from one flat piece that I use for bevel setting.

There were no kiita / suita pieces in that lot, unfortunately.
 
Hello all,

I figured it was about time to post some of my more recent observations regarding honing on my nakayama. A while back, I purchased another honzan slurry stone from JimR along with a Mejiro nagura. The Mejiro is really a nice looking stone, but it is unlike any other that I've used. It's very soft, chalky, and dries almost immediately after wetting the stone. It must be very porous, so it's absorbing the water I presume.

I should firstly mention that I am using the methods of honing on a Japanese natural as desribed by JimR http://coticule.be/japanese-hones-a-traditional-approach.html. VERY useful information. If you have a Japanese natural or are looking into getting one, this is a must read.

I've used the Mejiro to create a slurry on my nakayama after a couple of points in a progression. I've used it after a coticule or 8k norton, and it very easily replaces the coticule or 8k scratches with a very uniform hazy bevel. The same was done after my DMT 1200, but this obviously took a bit more time. I honestly don't remember how many laps, but it was a reasonable number, nothing in excess of 100-200. (PLEASE don't quote on that number, as I don't remember how many it took, that was merely a guess. All I remember is that it didn't take more than 10-15 minutes.) Jim stresses the importance of ensuring the entire length of the bevel has the same uniform haze to it. I didn`t finish with the Mejiro slurry until I had achieved this uniform haziness along the entire bevel.

After this, I move to a slurry created with a pure honzan stone. This slurry takes a lot longer to raise than using the nagura. The honzan slurry stone, and my nakayama itself, are very hard stones, so it`s substantially harder to raise the slurry. One technique that I`ve tried only recently (after reading a suggestion by Bart) is to tilt the slurry stone to help raise a slurry. This helped a lot, but still takes a fair bit of rubbing to achieve that 2% milk-like consistency that is required. After the honzan slurry is raised, I hone away! It usually takes me about 100-200 strokes until the slurry starts to thicken and get kind of pastey. I`ve tried just finishing at this point, and I`ve also tried refreshing the slurry and repeating the process again until it is once again pastey. I`ve gotten steller results either way, although I think the times I`ve refreshed I`ve gotten slightly sharper edges. I think it depends entirely on your particular stone. But either way, I do not dilute and simply finish on the slurry. (PLEASE note that these principles and techniques do not transfer over to coticules. They may not even necessarily transfer to other Japanese stones as there is a lot of variation among them.)

If I did my above steps correctly, I`m left with one of the most beautiful looking bevels! I know looks aren`t everything, but it has a really nice even shiney haze to it. No appearance of scratches at all. After I strop it on linen then leather, the edges it leaves are a hair assassin. Literally HHT-5 (if I do it all correctly obviously). The hair will touch the edge and just fall silently, no popping at all, just a very clean cut. Shaving with such an edge is a bit different than with a coticule edge, as I do find it a bit less forgiving. But it also seems to cut the hair a bit more effortlessly. I`m not going to say that one edge is better than the other, just that they`re different. Apples and oranges.

I`ve recently ordered 2 more naguras to add to my collection: a Botan and a Tenjou. The Botan is a courser nagura, and more appropriate to use before the Tenjou or Mejiro slurry (from what I`ve read, absolutley no first hand experience!). The Tenjou is supposed to be the same fineness as the Mejiro, but it has a cool stripey look to it. :lol: I`ve been trying to acquire a Koma nagura, the finest of them, the use as an intermediate step between the Mejiro (or Tenjou) slurry and the honzan slurry. But I`ve been doing just fine without that step for now, perhaps just spending a little more time on the final slurry that I would have to if I had the Koma.

Anyways, thanks for enduring that long post! Japanese naturals are indeed very interesting, but I have no intention of acquiring another anytime soon. I quite like the idea of having one stone and just using different slurries on it as a progression. I like my Nakayama, it`s a nice hard one and the perfect dimensions for me, roughly 18cm x 4cm. I`m not abandoning my coticules anytime soon (not to worry!), but I am definitely enjoying using my nakayama in ways other than just with water as a final polish.

Happy Honing!

Dave
 
Thanks for posting that Dave.

I don't have all the different Naguras, but a lot of what you write sounds familiar to my own approach with the Nakayama.
I second your observation about "glide" and "forgiveness", compared between Nakayama and Coticules.

:thumbup:
Bart.
 
I'd like to put my 2 cents in the discussion too.
I have had the chance to extensively play with 8 different Nakayamas.
The method works for the large majority, especially the softer ones.
I have a rather hard very rare kind that does the job with dilution method rather fast. My main asagi can finish both ways with dilution or with working the slurry to paste, then adding water and working back to paste.
One factor that also plays part in the finishing method, I thin is the stone used before the polisher.
For prepolisher I use a very good and fine J-nat stone so my work on the nakayama is not much at all.
If I come from 10k synthetic then the work that needs to be done takes time.

I find there are different approaches depending on the stone.

I have gotten great results with my Mejiro/Koma naguras on Nakayama used as base. However, one has to be careful with the coarser naguras, some contain hard particles that will get lodged in the softer stone surface ans scratch the bevel badly.
 
I posted a longer response to a thread @ SRP, but basically I was using too thin a slurry--I was going off HHT pre-stropping, not realizing that there was still slurry residue on the edge, muting the feedback. After linen stropping, the hairs popped beautifully! All those times I first used the hone & was so frustrated over--seemingly--having dulled the edge I could've avoided if I had only stropped it first before testing! :blush:

I used this (proper procedure) on a W&B that i had never really gotten shave-ready earlier, but it was close. I A/Bd it w/ another razor fresh off the Norton as a test, since I know I can get a very good shave off of that stone. Both were similar XTG (confirming something Bart said--that if a razor is truly shave-ready, technique is more important for the 2nd pass), but WTG, the edge off my Kiita was a lot closer. Felt much smoother on my face, although I got no burn w/ either. The nice thing is, I still probably haven't maxed out what the Kiita can do for me--even better shaves await! :thumbup: Jim, your method is perfect as is!
 
hello! i have one question for jim..i have bought this stone : http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=48&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=60

honyama asagi with tomae nagura ..what do you think about???

how can i use this stone without coticule or with coticule??

it is only for polishing?

the seller told me that is too hard to work for the bevel setting....
 
Stalker, I've answered your emails but to say a couple of things:

No finishing stone is a bevel setter. Hard or soft. When you do rough work on an awasedo (Japanese finishing hone), you are doing it with the nagura slurry--the stone underneath actually has NOTHING to do with it.

For the nagura work, any smooth hard surface will do. It's only in the finishing stages that the awasedo comes into play.
 
when the slurry breaking down, it become darker and paste-like,and it dry very fast, could i add a drop of water to the final to maintain the final polishing?
 
stalker said:
when the slurry breaking down, it become darker and paste-like,and it dry very fast, could i add a drop of water to the final to maintain the final polishing?

A drop or two, sure, why not? Play with it, experiment. It's the only way to know your stone. You are the only one who can tell for sure how it works best, with practice and experimentation. It's the only real way to learn.

Good luck!
 
the stone is arrived!!! HONYAMA ASAGI (maxin told me that is surely a NAKAYAMA) it is a really hard stone!! i ve make the first successfull experiment! i report my test :

a razor that non shave the arm hair.
1: bevel setting : honzan slurry stone with milk like slurry (about 150 laps!) when the slurry become mid-gray i check if the razor shave the arm hair,if not, i drop off the old slurry and make new....to avoid the slurry break down.
2: i make new slurry for the second lap ....another 100 laps .....now the razor shave the arm hair
3: with the same slurry i hone the razor and when become -paste like- and very dark, i add a drop of water and polish...

BUTTERY EDGE! FANTASTIC......

finishing with water is similar to finishig from paste like slurry....
 
JimR,

Thanks for posting all of this information and adding videos on youtube. I always loved the mystic of Japanese Stones and finally took the plunge in getting one rather cheaply through Takeshi Aoki's website. I purchased a Kanayama Honyama Kiita and three types of "nagura" stones for slurry progressions. I was actually quite surprised that Jnats could be found for such a good price and I have heard good things about him.

I will be posting on here to get some advice when the stones come sometime this week. Thanks !

nick
 
Me three LOL:lol:

danjared said:
yohannrjm said:
TstebinsB said:
...... I am thinking about buying a 5 in. Nakayama, cutting it up into 3-4 pieces, and using them as slurry stones.

Generally speaking, Asagi stones are always harder than Kiita stones. If anything, the Asagi would probably serve as the better slurry stone for the Kiita.

Hey Telly,

Welcome to coticule.be. This thread was also very useful to me in getting the best out of the Asagi you sold me.

The difference in edge that I got when using Asagi honzan instead of the Nagura was tremendous. There truely isn't any reason to do any more polishing once I've finished honing on the Asagi.

If you do buy a Kiita to cut up, let me know....I'd be interested in buying a piece. I've not yet picked up a Kiita hone, but I may do so sometime (if I can find one I can afford).

I would also be interested in a kiita honzan to go with my kiita.
 
Nick,

I'm always happy if someone finds some benefit in what I post. I'm just in it for the pleasure of exploration, and sharing is just something I do. Let us know how it goes with your new stone!
 
Jim, I was just curious, have you ever lent a coticule to a Japanese honing expert ? I wonder what their opinion would be ... would their technique differ from the way we use them ?
 
^ I have to think they wouldn't go over too well. The use and expectation would be so different - or else they would have to adopt a new technique to deal with the different kind of slurry.
 
Wim, I'm planning to do just that once I get the split coti fixed up.

But I agree with Woodash, I can't see it being too popular. Totally different style, totally different standards of stone quality judgements. I know one guy who will try anything hone related, though, so if I can half-ass translate the dilucot/unicot into Japanese, I'll send it to him and see what he does with it.
 
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