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kanayama strop.....the next
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Bart
Well-Known Member
richmondesi said:
I haven't experienced any decline in keenness. I did testify though , that the leather component "waxes" the edge during the first couple of uses, which influenced my HHT-readings, until I degreaser the edges. After a good 2 weeks of use (about 20 stroppings and a fair amount of hand rubbing) I no longer need to degrease the edges before testing. I don't know if statements about declining keenness and this waxing effect are related, but it's a possibility. Other than that, I have no clue what that's all about.
About performance for a given price, when you buy a 35EUR cigar ( they do exist), you'll need to trim the cap, before you can smoke it. The manufacturer won't do that for you. And there's always the possibility that you like a 3.50EUR cigar better. That's just how it is.
Calling this strop dysfunctional, is unfair. That's my opinion, now that I've been able to really try it. I'm actually enthusiastic about it. And that is honestly not influenced by the price I paid for it. I would be equally enthusiastic if it cost me only 19.99EUR.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Paul
Well-Known Member
Bart said:
How did you come to own this strop, Bart? Numerous members here complained about the linen component causing their HHT scores to drop, right? I'm not talking about the leather, at all. I am referencing the repeated references to poor linen performance that you cited on several occasions in your discussions about these strops. In fact, I'm willing to bet my house that you started doing the "heavy handed" breaking in because you weren't fond of the linen performance.
Bart said:
Apples and muffins is how far off this comparison is. What cigars do come with a trimmed cap? I can name several linen components that come fully prepared not to dull my razor's edge.
Bart said:
I'm very happy for you :thumbup:
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
Alrighty then...
I just took my Eskiltuna to my little Las Lutneuses, came off of it with a HHT3 on a medium hair, took it then to my virgin Kanayama linen (which has had no treatment beyond a half-assed rolling between my palms when Bart first suggested his treatment; it was the other side that I'd sanded).... no improvement in HHT, and furthermore, going from that to my Scrupleworks v-weave linen failed to bring the increase in HHT that I'm used to seeing when going from the stone to the strop. There wasn't a drop in HHT, but certainly no improvement.
This result is similar to the results I'd experienced the first time I'd used it.
For my money, I can't be bothered dealing with the Kanayama linen, mostly because the results I get from my ScrupleWorks strop are great.
I'm with Paul on this one: it's kind of ridiculous to have to go to such extreme lengths to make what's supposed to be the best strop in the world function the way I expect, with no guarantee that it's going to ever do that. It's like buying a luxury automobile, and then having to buy a steering wheel for it.
With that said, again, I have no complaint with the leather, and in my mind, I'd resigned myself to the fact that I paid $200 for that strip of leather. And, I found a work-around in procuring a linen strop from a different source that does meet my expectations, out of the box..... for $15.00.
I just took my Eskiltuna to my little Las Lutneuses, came off of it with a HHT3 on a medium hair, took it then to my virgin Kanayama linen (which has had no treatment beyond a half-assed rolling between my palms when Bart first suggested his treatment; it was the other side that I'd sanded).... no improvement in HHT, and furthermore, going from that to my Scrupleworks v-weave linen failed to bring the increase in HHT that I'm used to seeing when going from the stone to the strop. There wasn't a drop in HHT, but certainly no improvement.
This result is similar to the results I'd experienced the first time I'd used it.
For my money, I can't be bothered dealing with the Kanayama linen, mostly because the results I get from my ScrupleWorks strop are great.
I'm with Paul on this one: it's kind of ridiculous to have to go to such extreme lengths to make what's supposed to be the best strop in the world function the way I expect, with no guarantee that it's going to ever do that. It's like buying a luxury automobile, and then having to buy a steering wheel for it.
With that said, again, I have no complaint with the leather, and in my mind, I'd resigned myself to the fact that I paid $200 for that strip of leather. And, I found a work-around in procuring a linen strop from a different source that does meet my expectations, out of the box..... for $15.00.
Bart
Well-Known Member
I came to own my Kanayama strop because of this thread. A few members complained about their Kanayama linen not delivering up to their expectations. Jim didn't understand because he has no shortage of happy customers. I speculated that Coticule users might have different expectations of a linen strop than people who rely on other sharpening ways, certainly when those other sharpening ways include a pasted strop. That completely defeats the purpose of fist time stropping on linen when coming off a whetstone.richmondesi said:
Anyway, because I don't like to talk about something that I didn't try, I stated my suspicions this problem could very well be related to suppleness (or the lack thereof) and left it at that. Jim contacted me with the offer to send me a couple of test straps of the linen. He told me I could do with it as I pleased and expressed the hope that would be able to solve the problem for our members. I had two concerns: firstly if I was to test the linen, I wanted to test it in conjunction with the rest of the Kanayama strop. And secondly, I insisted to pay for the strop, minus one test strap of linen. That's how I ended up buying a Kanayama 80000.
Your question suggests that I am not objectively reporting about my experiences with the Kanayama strop. I can assure you that Jim encouraged me to be blatantly honest about whatever issues I found with the strop. I understood that he had to make that clear.
The motive of your question, however, I do not understand. Yet I answered it anyway.
I don't know about HHT scores that were supposed to drop. It thought that the problem was that apart from drying and cleaning the edge, the Kanayama linen didn't deliver the aforementioned edge performance boost post honing. Urmas shared some pictures with me, in which he used good old carbon paper to reveal how well a razor makes contact with 2 different fabric strops. One was the Kanayama linen and the pictures revealed rather poor contact. It looked as if the razor contacted merely the sides of the strap. That confirmed my suspicions that this indeed was a problem of suppleness, and also of surface flatness, but the former would surely affect the latter. Urmas used a technique to soak the linen and hammer it, and achieved good results. He shared this earlier on in this thread.richmondesi said:
There is no need to bet your house. There is nothing concealed here. I decided up front that my first attempt would be to mechanically soften the fabric, as soon as it arrived. I believe I made that clear earlier on in this thread. Hence, that is what I did, and it solved the case, as far as I'm concerned. The first few days, I repeated the process of the video I shared.
richmondesi said:
Dutch cigars almost without exception do have a trimmed cap, even the most expensive ones. Does this make it a shame that Carribean cigars need to be trimmed by the smoker? That the Kanayama strop requires a simple additional step to make it fully functional for Coticule users, is not something that would hold me back from buying one.
Just for your information, it is hard to not read sarcasm in that closing line.richmondesi said:
wdwrx said:
I don't usually perform a HHT after a linen. What counts for me is the HHT-improvement after the leather strop. I have noticed that there is less improvement, stropping the freshly honed edge off a Coticule, when there is no fabric stropping in between, or when there is a dysfunctional fabric in between.
I am completely confident that I could hone 2 identical razors on the same Coticule, strop one on the TM linen / Old Traditional and the other one on the Kanayma linen / leather, without any discernible difference between the end results.
Kind regards,
Bart.
G
Guest
Somebody bring these two gentlemen sedatives, please!
I think that is one of several truisms that should be compiled and made mandatory reading for every new joiner. Along with "which layer is right for a beginner, and how many virgins do I have to sacrifice to make it work", and "are Thurri's better tehn Coti's for honing Filly's and Butchy's". Or something along those lines.Bart said:
Paul
Well-Known Member
Bart said:
In the post that I replied to, you acted as if you had never heard anyone complain about loosing keenness because of their Kanayama strop. I was asking you how you came to buy one to jog your memory about that. Obviously, it didn't work.
Bart said:
You don't know about HHT that dropped? Seriously?
Here is the first one I remember:
wdwrx said:
Here's one from Chris on the first page of this thread.
wdwrx said:
Bart said:
I've never smoked a cigar (much less a good one) that came with a trimmed cap. This is a crazy concept to me.
The procedure is so "simple" that even after reading all your posts, and watching the video 4 times, I still don't know what you did to it. I think I can figure it out, but what you described looked (in my head) way different than what you did in the video, but I honestly couldn't tell what you were doing in the video. So, I'm not sure how "simple" it is.
Bart said:
I'm not one to shy away from my intent. If I were being sarcastic, you'd have gotten a
I told you, I don't expect anyone to share my values.
DJKELLY
Well-Known Member
Just to stir the shit. I have never seen so many words written about so little. I agree with both of the "alfas" on this one. And Robin, too, for that matter, not that you're not an alfa, Robin, just not a dog in the fight.
It is, indeed, reasonable to expect a new component of a very expensive stropping system to work, or at least for there to be some literature accompanying the purchase of the item suggesting a break-in period or method to make it more effective. That linen was just not any fun to use. The leather makes up for it in most users' experience. There could easily be some cultural reason for not supplying instructions. I have a lot of experience in Japan. Saving face and talking down to someone are very serious matters there. Consequently, sometimes nothing is said just to be safe.
It is also nice to know that with some massaging, the linen can be made serviceable and even nice. I have not done anything with my two Kanayama linens because I have earned laziness and almost every other strop I have works just fine, thank you. It is just not worth the effort right now. My Dovo linen will provide the total increase in sharpness that stropping produces and the leather just seems to make it smoother.
We are all too invested in something and could do well to read a page out of BlackNTan's rulebook. Sincerely, Denny
It is, indeed, reasonable to expect a new component of a very expensive stropping system to work, or at least for there to be some literature accompanying the purchase of the item suggesting a break-in period or method to make it more effective. That linen was just not any fun to use. The leather makes up for it in most users' experience. There could easily be some cultural reason for not supplying instructions. I have a lot of experience in Japan. Saving face and talking down to someone are very serious matters there. Consequently, sometimes nothing is said just to be safe.
It is also nice to know that with some massaging, the linen can be made serviceable and even nice. I have not done anything with my two Kanayama linens because I have earned laziness and almost every other strop I have works just fine, thank you. It is just not worth the effort right now. My Dovo linen will provide the total increase in sharpness that stropping produces and the leather just seems to make it smoother.
We are all too invested in something and could do well to read a page out of BlackNTan's rulebook. Sincerely, Denny
Bart
Well-Known Member
Paul,
I am getting sick and tired of all this shit.
This is essentially a positive forum, founded to talk about Coticules and how to manage getting the best possible results.
On a tangent, we discuss the strops that follow, and this thread serves no other purpose than to see how one can manage getting the best possible results.
Are you getting better results from other hones, other strops, other gear, good for you.
Would you like to perfect your results on that other hone, strop, gear, feel free to start a thread.
But stop infesting threads with all this senseless noise about products you don't own or don't care to try.
If your only business in a thread (any thread on this forum) is to repulse the discussed item (whatever it is), then stay out of it. There is plenty opportunity on the Internet for producing noise.
Bart.
I am getting sick and tired of all this shit.
This is essentially a positive forum, founded to talk about Coticules and how to manage getting the best possible results.
On a tangent, we discuss the strops that follow, and this thread serves no other purpose than to see how one can manage getting the best possible results.
Are you getting better results from other hones, other strops, other gear, good for you.
Would you like to perfect your results on that other hone, strop, gear, feel free to start a thread.
But stop infesting threads with all this senseless noise about products you don't own or don't care to try.
If your only business in a thread (any thread on this forum) is to repulse the discussed item (whatever it is), then stay out of it. There is plenty opportunity on the Internet for producing noise.
Bart.
Paul
Well-Known Member
Bart said:
Tone at the top, indeed!
I asked a simple question that seems perfectly fitting. "Am I the only one who thinks this is a lot of work for such an expensive piece of kit?" I said repeatedly that I didn't feel the need to impose my value system on anyone, but it seemed like a lot of work.
You have no idea that I'm not only budgeting to purchase this strop, I'm also discussing experimenting with one with a friend who has one. So, your charge that I have no interest in buying or trying one demonstrates something.
On two occasions (only), I've made negative comments (or comments that can be perceived as negative) about products, and both of which are products that not only have I tried to buy, I'm still trying to buy. And, now when presented with the points elaborating on what I was saying (because you continued the conversation originally), you stopped discussing the issue and basically decided it was time to get personal. I'm shocked.
It's funny because I just sent Denny a private email saying that you and I weren't having a problem. We just speak frankly with each other. I guess I was wrong
G
Guest
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RicTic
Well-Known Member
Not if you beat the horse for a little longer. It doesn't cost a penny and the animal won't feel a thing.vgeorge said:You shouldn't have done that Robin. Cow hide with hard felt strops are waaaaaaaay better.:
Well I bought my Kanayama weeks ago and the linen component was less than effective with my edge.
Great for removing post honing debris and anything lost was reclaimed on the leather.
Not so bad.
After a little manipulation, as per this thread (thanks Bart), I now have a linen worthy of the leather it came with.
Even better.
Pretty straight forward really.
It's always hard to know if the "final edge" is a result of the linen or leather. I mean maybe the kanayama linen isn't very good at doing anything to the HHT test by itself, but maybe in combination with the leather it creates a very nice edge. I've always felt like the texture and thickness of the linen worked against me.
G
Guest
Alright, let me see if I got this thread straight so far.
[li]The linen component of the Kanayama strops does not perform overly well for Coticule edges out of the box.[/li]
[li]Using the various ways of manhandling the linen component suggested in this thread, this shortcoming can be remedied.[/li]
[li]No-one knows whether the linen component works well for razors not honed on Coticules. That is a problem, because Coticule edges have been proven to require a certain texture/type of abrasion from the strop, especially after honing.[/li]
[li]Paul asked a question that I believe is valid for any review: "Did the reviewer buy the product he reviewed, or was it given to him by the manufacturer or a vendor?" Incidentally, I wrote a short piece about the underlying problem today (it had been in the making for some time, and I published it before the discussion here got heated, so it is pure coincidence, but fits well, I think.) Accusing Bart of shilling, whether overtly or covertly is, however, just downright defamatory. Paul, I think you owe Bart an apology.[/li]
[li]In the end, the thread should have made it clear that Kanayama strops are luxury items that require some intervention on behalf of the owner to make them fully functional for Coticule edges. If you do not like that, get another strop. Because Kanayama strops are rare, and nice, and pricey, but do not outperform other strops that are produced in larger quantities, look less nice, or are cheaper.[/li]
garyhaywood
Well-Known Member
Right i have used barts breaking in method . This did make a better differance. While this discustion has been going on, my Kanayama linen has been soaked in fabric conditioner. Also been dryed naturaly for two days. I also ironed it flat with plenty of steam. Now i just stroped on the linen . Now i'm saying it how it felt. I can onestly say it is ten times better . The linen feels loads softer and so usable. I actauly like it. I never thought i would say that.
The reason bart has this linen is because he wanted to make it usable for the guys that own the k linen. Thanks to bart it is now very usable i would never of botherd with it other wise.
I can see why some guys think you should'nt have to go to these lenghts when the strop is'nt cheap. The main thing is now i can use it. I'm going to do just that .
try conditioner and iron with bags of steam, it works.
Gary
The reason bart has this linen is because he wanted to make it usable for the guys that own the k linen. Thanks to bart it is now very usable i would never of botherd with it other wise.
I can see why some guys think you should'nt have to go to these lenghts when the strop is'nt cheap. The main thing is now i can use it. I'm going to do just that .
try conditioner and iron with bags of steam, it works.
Gary