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Lather and honing

jfdupuis said:
Quick question...so you guys use a dry coticule and
Rub it with a wet or dry soap? Any preference on thr soap? Tallow or glyceryn base?

Dry stone, dry soap. I tried to find the hardest I had. My girlfriend picks up soaps from her trips and I used an English one but have no idea if it is glycerin or tallow. It probably doesn't matter as I bet neither would have any sharpening or dulling effect.
Denny
 
after i did the soap thing. i went back and rehoned and i tikerd for near on a couple of hours trying to get the max of my la vainette. one thing did which dennis mentioned , was i light draged the edge over my wet thumb twice just like the horn. I did 20 laps on coticule with water. hht no improvemant. i went back later and did 50 laps on coticule stropped and the hht was bang on and easily good enought for me to test shave . i'm not sure if it was the nail trick but it was worth atry and did'nt do any harm. i will try soap again but not on this razor .

what is a micro burr? does this efect keeness?
 
DJKELLY said:
If my theory is correct, Bart, the dragging through the soap is only for intermeditate improvement on the way to further refinement, and won't make any difference if many other polishing strokes are performed and the microburr, if there is one, is already gone. The fact that you saw some improvement at one point with the soap "horn" seems to support a microburr, but I am not saying that is what is going on. Something is, though, and it would surely seem to be mechanical. In the Dovo video, the honer makes super rapid half strokes and drags the edge through the horn. She then goes back to the hone. I bet she has more HHTs than all of us combined.

I don't think the sharpening lady at Dovo uses the HHT. During the last get together with some straight shaving pals, Leo De Brouwer, write of a well-known book about straight razor shaving (in Dutch) attended as well. He has visited the Dovo factory, in company of a few resellers of Dovo razors. (His first question to the guys from Dovo was: "who of you shaves with a straight razor?" No one answered affirmatively.) He saw the lady, she really exists and hasn't been doing anything else for over 20 years, he told us. She sets the bevel, "removes the bur" with the wet cowhorn, but she sharpens on Red Dovo paste. Leo was formal that the video doesn't show the entire procedure.
In any case, the way they sharpen at Dovo has little bearing, with what we're trying to go here: squeezing that last bit of keenness out a Coticule. There are far easier ways to achieve that, Dovo red paste being only one option. The only thing is, that I haven't found an option that's so wonderfully smooth and discerning between whiskers and skin, than that ultimate Coticule edge. But the Dovo factory edge is nowhere near that league. Understandably so. They need to get a shaveable edge on quickly and economically.

As to my current hypothesis why the cutting trough soap on the hone trick works for me: I think one of the main problems to get past a certain keenness limit on a hone (any hone) is caused by the very thinness of the bevel tip and the fact that it rests on the entire bevel side. I think this causes all kinds of interference and fluttering of the very edge while it passes over the surface. The soap potentially aids with 2 problems: it fills the gaps, providing a less interfering surface, and while cutting through the soap it might be a stabilizing factor against flutter. All very hypothetical, but it offers a possible explanation why it only works under very precise circumstances: the edge needs to be maxed out on water so it can gain that little extra during that limited stroke-count the soap provides the proper conditions. That also explains why the edge reverts back to the water sharpness level. Obviously, that is a very good edge in its own right. I've shaved with Double Arrows carrying such a Dilucot edge left by finishing with only water atop every hone in the Vault.
Tomorrows test shave will tell me if these edges, produced with the soap-trick, have something extra to offer. I know both the Dovo Silversteel and the Double Arrows quite well. If there's a noticeable difference, I'll notice it. :D

By the way, my soap is a mixture of tallow and glycerin based shaving soaps. If this whole idea lives up to its promises, I'll try it with other soaps as well. I suspect that creams won't work.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
garyhaywood said:
after i did the soap thing. i went back and rehoned and i tikerd for near on a couple of hours trying to get the max of my la vainette. one thing did which dennis mentioned , was i light draged the edge over my wet thumb twice just like the horn. I did 20 laps on coticule with water. hht no improvemant. i went back later and did 50 laps on coticule stropped and the hht was bang on and easily good enought for me to test shave . i'm not sure if it was the nail trick but it was worth atry and did'nt do any harm. i will try soap again but not on this razor .

what is a micro burr? does this efect keeness?
Gaz, I think a microburr is a super small fluff of steel that adheres to the the very edge after the bevels have met, very similar to a burr or wire edge that forms on a knife when honed on coarser stones. I am convinced it is there but can't prove it without a super microscope. I believe in it because I can raise the hht two points after the dilution phase of a dilucot by light stropping. Very light stropping or running the edge through a bar of soap. I don't think soap has any dulling or sharpening action of its own, so it has to be a mechanical removal of a microscopic burr that is going on. That's what I think, anyway. Can't prove it, don't own it. Denbo
 
Todays shaving results:

Both Double Arrows shaved as well as they ever get. I think they're operating at their peak performance. They were extremely keen, forgiving in the sense that it would be difficult to get nicked, but their is that ever so slight yet typical Double Arrow gruffness. Something they can't seem to overcome.

The Dovo shaves better than it ever has. I shaved the left side of my face with the Dovo, and the right side with the Double Arrows. The Dovo was completely mellow, perfectly keen and close shaving. The Double Arrows performed the same, except for being more of a brisk/engaging nature. Which, once again demonstrated how ambiguous descriptions of a Coticule's finishing properties can be. I used the same La Dressante on all three razors.

I am convinced now that there definitely is something to gain from soapcoating the hone. I plan to run some more tests on other Coticules, try to find the soap that works best (if there's any significant difference), and will probably end up assigning one of my Coticules to this task, to be used whenever finishing on water doesn't fully meets my expectations.

In need to spend some time to put bevels on the Coticule.be set of test Revisors. For their maiden experiment, I'll finish 4 of them on water and 4 on soap. If Gary and Ralfson are up for it, I let them do the blind assessment.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
That all sounds very good my friend, I was not able to hone my DA last night, but I will do one on Sunday for sure, and then finish on soap
The Revisor test is of course my pleasure too

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
Uninformed question: Is is fairly well known that soaps and the chemicals in them won't do any damage to the binder materials in a coti? I ask, 'cause it works to dissolve some binders in synthetics (naniwa), and soaps are avoided w/ the jnats. Maybe this questions has been asked an answered before. The recommended additive to water for the jnat has been sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).
 
Bart said:
Todays shaving results:

Both Double Arrows shaved as well as they ever get. I think they're operating at their peak performance. They were extremely keen, forgiving in the sense that it would be difficult to get nicked, but their is that ever so slight yet typical Double Arrow gruffness. Something they can't seem to overcome.

The Dovo shaves better than it ever has. I shaved the left side of my face with the Dovo, and the right side with the Double Arrows. The Dovo was completely mellow, perfectly keen and close shaving. The Double Arrows performed the same, except for being more of a brisk/engaging nature. Which, once again demonstrated how ambiguous descriptions of a Coticule's finishing properties can be. I used the same La Dressante on all three razors.

I am convinced now that there definitely is something to gain from soapcoating the hone. I plan to run some more tests on other Coticules, try to find the soap that works best (if there's any significant difference), and will probably end up assigning one of my Coticules to this task, to be used whenever finishing on water doesn't fully meets my expectations.

In need to spend some time to put bevels on the Coticule.be set of test Revisors. For their maiden experiment, I'll finish 4 of them on water and 4 on soap. If Gary and Ralfson are up for it, I let them do the blind assessment.

Kind regards,
Bart.

of coarse i will

gary
 
Well, Bart, I got identical results with another razor with your soap loaded stone. I used the same soap, Gilchrist & Soames, and an old Blue Diamond razor that has a drastically overhoned spine. A little trig (I mean trigonometry) showed the bevel to be 14 degrees. I used two layers of 3M to get it back over 17 degrees. I did a normal dilucot with the taped spine and it passed hht3. I went to the narrow la dressante with leftover soap and it would not up the keenness at all, and maybe lowered it a bit. Went back to my la verte and it went back to a solid 3. I washed and dried the narrow la dressante, applied a heavy layer of soap, worked it in with my thumb and did 80 strokes. The razor "planed" the soap off the surface, got very smooth and produced a solid hht4. There is no doubt in my mind it will shave like others after this procedure.

I am not sure why it takes a new layer of soap for this method to work, but it looks like it does. Maybe it is the mechanical removal of the microburr, or the edge cutting its own way, or cleaning (pun?) the edge, but it is repeatable. I really like how smooth the surface of the stone feels with this "soapstone" method. The key seems to be the large number of strokes.

Your pal, Denny
 
I tried to rub a dry soap over a dry coticule, but i did not get a lot of soap
On the stone. Maybe a slighty humid soap would help? I could then let it dry ?
 
jfdupuis said:
I tried to rub a dry soap over a dry coticule, but i did not get a lot of soap
On the stone. Maybe a slighty humid soap would help? I could then let it dry ?

That's what I tried to do last night, FWTW, it didn't really want to stick, so I dampend the stone and rubbed it all into a fairly even layer and let it dry for abiut 5 min and then tried... but I don't think I'm having any luck with honing today so I'm not even close to trying again.... some days ya got it, and other days, it's got you.
 
Cool! I tried with a dry mwf and dry regular bath dove soap bar. It didn't really spread
On the stone at all.
 
I've finally gotten one razor back up to a HHT off my Le Verte, so before I did anything else, I gave it three edge down passes through a dried puck of Williams. I couldn't detect any change in the HHT at all, neither an obvious improvement nor any decrease.
I'm about to rub the same puck of Williams on my Le Verte and try the soap method. BRB.
 
pinklather said:
Uninformed question: Is is fairly well known that soaps and the chemicals in them won't do any damage to the binder materials in a coti? I ask, 'cause it works to dissolve some binders in synthetics (naniwa), and soaps are avoided w/ the jnats. Maybe this questions has been asked an answered before. The recommended additive to water for the jnat has been sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

I don't have specific chemical data to proof that it doesn't harm. However, there is a lot of testimony in literature, barber manuals, etc that Coticules have been used with lather on top for over 2 centuries. The word lather could be used in the sense of "sharpening lather", which is just more civilized word for "slurry", but it is equally certain that a lot of barbers used soap lather as well. I have once read a statement that the lather supposed to dissolve the top layer of the stone, releasing garnets more rapidly than plain water. I don't know this to be true or not, but I admit that it crossed my mind when I noticed during experimenting how fast a slurry+lather mixture turns black. I've not run a direct comparison with pure slurry, so I really don't want to make too much out of it. Maybe the added soap just suspends the steel particles better, which could make them more apparent. Hard to say.

But at any case, I'm quite confident that the use of lather won't harm your Coticule. There's no historical indication, and neither has my personal use of it ever shown any indication in that direction.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
:blink:
well, what the hell.

OK.... I did just about what Denny's got in the post above; rubbed dry soap on a damp hone until it started to take a bit of soap, wiped it off and rubbed some more on, rubbed with my thumb what was staying behind 'till it was smooth and glossy looking on the stone. The first few passes scraped off a bit of soap dust, so i rubbed that back in and rubbed the blade clean with my thumb, and then did 50 x-strokes (dry)... not much improvement in hht, did another fifty x-strokes, and saw a slight improvement to a HHT4. So I've got a HHT4(ish) where I'd started with a hht3 coming off water after full dulling and dilution and another second light dilution from super light slurry. I wonder where the HHT will be after stropping.

Over the past day, I've tried several times to strike Denny's "bur" off on my thumbnail, and the soap, but I didn't see any change. I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, but I haven't honestly haven't seen any change with this. I agree with Dennis wholeheartedly that as few as 4 swipes on the linen or jeans will make an improvemnt in HHT, but I can't achieve the same with the soap, or my version of cow horn.
 
For those that like to try copying my results, here's a condensed version of my best method so far:

1. Hone the razor with Dilucot till it maxes out (at least till you can pop a thick hair at 10mm form the holding point.
2. look for the thinner hair and confirm that it only "plays the violin" on the edge. Put the thin hair aside for future testing.
3. Take a dry Coticule (preferably the same as you used for the previous Dilucot) and a piece of hard shaving soap.
4. Rub the soap on the Coticule as if it was a slurry stone. The soap will do doubt "write" on the surface of the Coticule.
"write" roughly the entire surface, and use your bare hands to massage the coat of soap evenly across the surface. The coat maybe very thin, like a greasy layer on top of the stone.
5. Perform 30 precise X-strokes. Don't rush. During the first strokes, the razor will shave off part of the soap. This is OK. Just finish the 30 strokes.
6. Rinse the razor under hot water and clean it with a pinching motion, holding a paper tissue between thumb and index finger.
7. Take the thin hair that you 'd put aside and perform the HHT. Instead of violining, it should pop the hair at over 20mm from the holding point. If not, proceed to step 8.
8. spread 3 drops of water on the Coticule and perform X-strokes till it appears dry again (about 50). check again with the HHT, using the thin hair. If it doesn't pop, check if the thick hair still pops. If yes, go back to 4. If not, continue with 9.
9. Rinse the Coticule well. Rub it with the palm of your hand to remove most of the water. Perform 50 laps on the thin coat of water. Check again with the thick hair. If it passes, proceed to 4. If not repeat this step.

Sorry for the extensive procedure, but somewhere during this practice, I've found success each time I tried it so far.

Thank you,
Bart.
 
Thank you for this Bart, I will try tomorrow (sunday)

Btw has this thread become a quick stand in for the researchers mess?

kind regards
Ralfson
 
I look forward to your results, Ralfson. I sure hope someone can copy my outcome.

I deliberately posted this outside the Researcher's Mess. It more or less lead its own life in a few other threads and I decided to start a separate thread about it. But in retrospect, with the Dennis, Chris and Jean-françois showing interesting in trying, and neither to those have researcher status (yet), I don't regret to run the thread in the Coticule Tavern.
It appears that the Researchers Mess is on hold till we find time to fire things up again.

Good night, mon cher ami,
Bart.
 
With the soap bar or puck I was using, Chris, if the keenness would normally go up with jeans stropping, it would also go up with puck slicing, but if I continued on the "soapstone" for sixty or more laps, it would not make a difference either with stropping or in the soap. That's make me think that at this point that the "burr" you doubt me about (ye of little faith) is already gone.

If you are getting hht4 off a hone, WTF are you looking for. That's close to it as far as I'm concerned, dood. Later, D
 
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