Trying a shapton 30k

[jendeindustries]

Hello Gents! Ralfy gave me the heads up about some Shapton talk :w00t: Thank you for the kind words regarding my experience and knowledge with the Shaptons. I'd like to add my input.

First and foremost, the edge from the 30K Shapton glass is different than the 30K Shapton pro, IMO. I must concur with the general consensus that the 30K Glass is on the sharper side of the sharp/smooth argument.

I have gone back and forth between the glass and pro 30K over and over, and I keep coming back to the Pro 30K for my straights. Perhaps it's because I've had it longer, or grown more accustomed to edge off it, or the sentimental value of such an expensive hone - I don't rightly know. What I know is really enjoy the balance of smooth, yet sharp (or sharp, yet smooth) of the pro over the slightly more sharp (relatively speaking) glass 30K. Are there smoother options than both? Yes.

In my experience, the 30K doesn't cut as fast as people think. Yes, 5-10 strokes on either series seems to give peak performance before a deterioration effect as described. However, I think those first few strokes are really "polishing the grooves", and not necessarily getting to the bottom of the previous scratches - at least with the way I hone.

What I find interesting is that it takes a lot of strokes to get past the previous grooves (again, the way I hone) and to get a true 30K edge. In this process, the any deeper leftover scratches translate into micro chips at this stage. Working to get past then is the key, IMO.

The risk with this is getting a thinner edge, which is subject to being more foil-like, although the edge will become more perfectly formed. If this is the case, I rehone with a piece of tape.

In the case of the Coticule straight to 30K I suspect this is even more exaggerated due to the more random scratches it leaves.

 

[Bart]

Thank you Tom.
What you wrote makes more sense to me than the "overhoning" claim, but of course, I am a notorious non-believer when it comes to "overhoning". As a concept, "overhoning" just doesn't make sense to me, at least no with edge-leading strokes.

Between the Chosera 5K and 10K (sorry to keep nagging about these, but they're the only synthetic hones I have good experience with), there is something similar going on. If you come of the 5K, there is initially a decline in edge performance going on, before the 10 catches up and starts to refine it's own edge. I have speculated that the next grit first eats its way through the asperities of the previous grit (as you suggested in you post) and only than starts a refining of its own. During that first phase, it appears to me that the edge looses the bite of the previous grit, with a resulting loss of performance.
The same also happens between that Chosera 5K and a Coticule, by the way. An initial drop of performance, and a gain later. At the risk to sound like a broken record: the internet is full of honing adages, that most people seem to be following in good confidence. I remember the days when one was supposed to do 15 laps on a Coticule after the Norton 8K, with as little pressure as humanly possible of course. It was almost as if we wanted to use the hone, for the sake of ownership, yet not too much, because it left such poor results...

Here's another thought for you: Most razors are designed with a bevel angle of about 17 degrees. I think that is what the ages of trial and error established as the optimum angle for a traditional level of sharpness. But for you "sports razor" fans (see one of my earlier posts) I think that an ultra-keen edge benefits from an obtuser bevel angle. Not only for the sake of better durability, but also because at such an extreme edge radius, a larger angle allows a cleaner edge definition. And I also think that I escapes the skin a bit better. Feather uses 25 degrees or so, for it's tertiary bevel. I don't think that is without reason.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[vgeorge]

Truly, insightful. Thanks, Bart, Tom, Emmanuel, Paul, Robin, et. al.

We all generally accept more easily few things as interesting variables, razor brands, razor grinds, types of hones, etc. And, we experiment with those variables, almost avoiding more promising ones.

Given that an amateur's capability to hand-hone has been steadily going up, and is likely to go up even further - not withstanding the attractiveness of the millions of years old natural hone - one very interesting variable yet to be fully explored and exploited indeed might be the bevel angle. Perhaps, Bart has already started on that with Unicot. It may just be the first shot across that bow.

Does any one 'prefer' a feather edge? (I have never shaved with one.) Barbers use it, right? How do they manage to not hurt your skin?

Bart is absolutely on target, I think, about the need to distance an excessively sharp edge a bit more from the skin. That also seems to suggest that you need bit more skill to shave with extra-extra-sharp edges. Is it that once accustomed, you naturally adjust your shaving angles, etc. to that level sharpness (and general geometry) - and you are almost forever spoilt for other levels of sharpness?

 

[jendeindustries]

Ralfy,

It seems that as I come across more vintage razors, I am adding tape to the spine in order to prevent the foiling of the edge. If you look at a lot of the old razor hones on ebay - especially barber shop coticules and such, they are dipped severely. Barber's hones are also always dipped in classic cartoons, too. I've long had the suspicion that this dipping actually helped the razors over time by steadily increasing the angle of the bevel over time (actually convexing it). If this was the tendency/practice, then perhaps we could venture to think that razor manufacturers intentionally (or even unintentionally) ground their razors too or more acutely so the razors would eventually hit that sweet spot once they were used with the hones. It's bordering on heresy - especially when the push nowadays is for precision and flatness.

Speaking of, I don't subscribe to the over-honing theory either. I feel that once an edge comes together as closely as it can, you will only continue to abrade evenly from both sides - regardless of edge trailing or leading. You only "overhone" because you have past the point of necessary honing, not that you have ruined the integrity of the edge. The foil effect, it isn't over honing, IMO. It's a geometry thing.

George - That's very interesting thinking :thumbup: - with more blade actually on your skin due to the "teeth" being more numerous and having less height off the high grit synthetics than off an 8K-ish coti, you get a much closer shave with more exfoliating properties.

But I don't think you need any extra technique for a more refined razor. A bit more care, perhaps as you can more easily slice yourself with a thinner edge of the edge. What I've noticed off of my very limited coticule shave experiences vs. my extensive synthetic hone shaves is that the razor off the coticule (and other 8K hones) has more pull to it while the synthetics past 8K tend to cut with less resistance.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Tom,
Just because I see this said a lot, I would like to take this chance to explain that the Coticule doesn't have a grit rating of 8K, its a very popular misconception, unfortunately started by Ardennes themselves when they felt it necessary to approximate the grit rating of Coticules, in order to try to appeal to buyers with synthetic honing experience, we have an explanation of Coticules and their grit related performance in the faq here: http://www.coticule.be/faq-reader/items/the_grit_question.html

I always thought the old barbers shop Coticules were dipped through wear, you old heretic you ...lol however I can understand how a razor honed on one in that condition would have a slightly convex bevel, and maybe just maybe this would improve the shave feel on certain steels? must I dont know it as fact? I do know that the problems of foiled edges and the elusive "overhoning" are not problems associated with Coticules.

Totally aside, and wrong topic or forum even, I did manage to greatly improve my C12k edges :thumbup: next round of honing exchange I would like you to try one from me, its not "amazing" but I did get some very acceptable nice shaves.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[vgeorge]

Very interesting and astute, Tom, what you say about the dished barber hones! It makes a lot of sense.

...
What I've noticed off of my very limited coticule shave experiences vs. my extensive synthetic hone shaves is that the razor off the coticule (and other 8K hones) has more pull to it while the synthetics past 8K tend to cut with less resistance.

Tom, what is your observation about the effect on the skin in these two cases? If there was any noticeable effect, did you have to compensate with different shaving angles, or any other way?

EDIT:

Perhaps, I did not quite understand this:

But I don't think you need any extra technique for a more refined razor. A bit more care, perhaps as you can more easily slice yourself with a thinner edge of the edge.

 

[Paul]

So, Emmanuel shared his experience of edge degradation with extended honing. That matches my experience. I classify that as "over honing". For the guys who don't subscribe to over-honing theories, what do you call it/how do you explain it?

 

[Jens]

Great to see you here Tom!

And thanks to everyone involved, some very interesting discussions are going on :thumbup:

 

[tat2Ralfy]

So, Emmanuel shared his experience of edge degradation with extended honing. That matches my experience. I classify that as "over honing". For the guys who don't subscribe to over-honing theories, what do you call it/how do you explain it?

Ah I get it, overhoning = too thin an edge that degrades yes? I always thought people meant overhoning as causing a wire edge or some such anomily?

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Guest]

What is the difference between an edge that is too thin and a wire edge?

 

[Emmanuel]

What is the difference between an edge that is too thin and a wire edge?

Robin The terms overhoning according the world technical right is when is prodused an extended
over edge. That you can observe honing a chisel only on one side,a very very fine wire turns to the other side and you can to feel it by one nails finger OR if you are honing by backward motions and actually happens to the softer steel.Concerning the hard steel ,over 59 rc the over hone wire no standing but brakes down.This cannot happen on the razor edge and mostly by forward motions or as Bart saying Leander edge motions.Tom allowed me to say that for my always opinion does not exist foiedge is the question of geometry.A peak of an equilateral triangle remain always a point .To produse a foil should be the triangle sides be paralleled.
Best regards
Emmanuel

 

[vgeorge]

...
Concerning the hard steel ,over 59 rc the over hone wire no standing but brakes down.This cannot happen on the razor edge and mostly by forward motions or as Bart saying Leander edge motions.Tom allowed me to say that for my always opinion does not exist foiedge is the question of geometry.A peak of an equilateral triangle remain always a point .To produse a foil should be the triangle sides be paralleled.

I can understand this - except for one minor point: geometry is not quite an equilateral, it may be more close to isosceles, triangle. (All Greek words, no Emmanuel?)

Therefore, soon after we put the razor on a stone with slurry, wouldn't the old edge be gone in just a stroke or two? Then, why do we need the glass-dulling? (I have read that part several times, could not understand the need for it! Sorry!)

Also, if the geometry holds stable (angles of the triangle remain unchanged), bevel angle has to get fixed. The only differences between Coticule and 30k-S results can be: (1) damage to the very tip from the impact of abrasive material, and (2) depth of scratches on the bevel.

Since geometry is locked, I cannot imagine how "average" edge radius could be very different or 30K-S producing 'thinner' edge. I say 'average', because the depth of abrasive scoring could be different in the two cases. If I have to bet, I would even wager on the side of large-garneted coticule to produce an edge that is thinner on the average (due to the deeper gnashes). Where is my thinking wrong?

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Dulling on glass is a different subject, we do that in order to be sure we have set a bevel with completely flat sides

I believe that foiled edges are produced when the hone is capable of producing an extremely fine apex to the bevel, it's not a case of the two bevel sides running parallel rather a case of the apex of the edge being so small it hasn't got the strength to survive the impact from coarse hair

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Emmanuel]

George i agree completely with you. I wanted to say isosceles ,sorry for my english even these words are greek.Also i believe that a coticule edge not only is thinner plus is more qualitative.
Ralf Is not possible two sides of a triangle to be parallel ,is just an example to exclude the foil case. How is possible a convex edge to be thinner than the straight sides edge as Tom said. If the sides are arcs, surly their angle is more blunt.And my last opinions :If during honing on the Shapton you feel more abrasive surface effecting the edge and the spine and finally if you observe strongly signs on both ,spine and edge ,what do you believe is the reason?
I can accept that Shapton has thinner cutting particles ,but i am sure that are not appropriates
to deliver a smooth edge. LOL
Best regards
Emmanuel

 

[Bart]

Isosceles it is. But on a dull razor the panes of the bevel are usually not flat. There can be a little or a lot of convexity, either located near the very tip, or spread over the full bevel width. If you read the explanation about dulling on glass in the Dilucot or Unicot article , you should have no problem understanding how it works together with the SAH test to reveal when a bevel is flat and fully extended.

The keenness of a bevel is directly defended by the radius at which both panes intersect. We know from Prof. Verhoeven's study that the tip radius of a shaving bevel is approximately 0.5 micron. It is important to realize here, that 0.1 micron marks a difference of 20%, hence a hone that offers 0.05micron more "abrasive precision" (remember that we hone both sides of the bevel) can make an edge 20% keener.

It is equally important to realize that this "abrasive precision" is not directly defined by particle diameter, but by the cutting depth of said particles. There are also other bevel forming functions than abrasion only.

Kind regards,
Bart

 

[Emmanuel]

I agree Bart.So, now the best way for a final evaluation is to test a Shapton by yourself.
I can't sent you the shapton that i have because is not mine ,but another member he can.
Best regards
Emmanuel

 

[tat2Ralfy]

If Tom is still following this thread, I believe he has some small slip stones at 30k? Maybe he would be gracious enough to lend one to Bart, should Bart desire trying this for himself?

Either way I for one am intrigued enough to certainly want to try finishing a razor on one, this thread has been most interesting :thumbup:

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Paul]

If Tom is still following this thread, I believe he has some small slip stones at 30k? Maybe he would be gracious enough to lend one to Bart, should Bart desire trying this for himself?

Either way I for one am intrigued enough to certainly want to try finishing a razor on one, this thread has been most interesting :thumbup:

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

If you'd like, I'll hone a razor on my set of Shaptons for you...

 

[Bart]

Kind sirs,

I really would not have the time for the endeavor it would be to fully familiarize myself with the Shapton way of honing.
I believe it would take months. There are several concepts shared (at various fora): 1. the use within a full progression of Shapton hones doing a restricted number of laps on the finishing grit(s). 2. Secondary bevel honing with the S30 (documented in a large thread at www.straightrazorplace.com) 3. the principles followed by Tom. Figuring out these 3 approaches would take a long time, one would had to deal with finding the optimal honing pressure zone, learn to discern certain feedback markers, etc. Or put otherwise, take the time to develop a true feel for these hones.

I have done so for Coticules and I know how much difference it makes, compared to someone who hasn't yet developed such familiarity with them. With all respect for Emmanuel's best intentions, it just isn't fair to briefly try a hone a couple of times, and compare it to a hone on which one has accumulated years of experience. And assess that comparison with a shaving technique that cannot else but to be completely in tune with a Coticule edge, and not with a Shapton 30K edge.

In the end, a comparison doesn't even matter much. The important thing is that people like Tom can get results that pleases them, and other guys, very much. It would be better to listen to that experience and try to gather it in an article that describes the do's and don'ts of these guys processes.

I never really understood why people buy sharpening stones, without ever taking the full journey on what they already have. I understand the desire to look over the fence, but from knowing how a certain type of finish shaves, it is better to commission an expert on that hone to sharpen a couple of razors for you and shave with these for a month or so.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Guest]

I never really understood why people buy sharpening stones, without ever taking the full journey on what they already have. I understand the desire to look over the fence, but from knowing how a certain type of finish shaves, it is better to commission an expert on that hone to sharpen a couple of razors for you and shave with these for a month or so.

But that is not how the social dynamics of internet shaving forums work. There are quite a few members here who got banned elsewhere because they criticised powerful people. Well, powerful in the internet sense of the word, ie people with lots of badges and a high post count. Forums love high post counts, lest they become smaller than other forums, and small is never good. Add to that an average attention span of 9 seconds, and the tendency of modern man to rely on tools rather than skills, you have got your explanation. Why is it, you think, that certain Coticule layers are now being sought specifically? It is the same mechanism as hoarding hones in the hope that one of them will turn you into a honing professional, only applied to Coticules.

Oh yeah. Don't forget the so called professionals who tell you that using hone X or Y will give you fast, consistent results. Anyone want to buy a full set of Nortons? Because, well, they do not.