Are you as annoyed as I am?

[TM280]

Paul,

I am terribly sorry! In no way did anything I have said refer to you. I should have made that clear and it was dumb of me.

I have been following the specific thread which seems to have started this one, as Chris has kindly pointed out.

And it looks like your charge of myopia holds rather well:

If at all possible please try to forget the unpleasantness I caused....

respectfully,
Torolf

edit: I was referencing what I see as Tok's treatment by others, elsewhere...

 

[RicTic]

What does annoy me, which Tok unfortunately is subject to due to his forum participation, is fallacious and dishonest argumentative strategies (circular, straw man, and begging the question arguments, to name a few concrete examples) with the sole purpose of putting an uppity upstart in their place. My posting here is to add my sympathy for his situation.

This is exactly why I'd never be prone to offering any experience I have (as little as it is) with a coticule, or endeavour to be so bold as to offer (God forbid) an opinion about coticules on that site.
I've read that thread (amongst others) and he has my sympathies too. As do all the other uppity upstarts brave enough to wave the coticule flag.
Is offering your 2 cents worth it?
I don't think so.

 

[torbenbp]

We are talking about razors,hones and strops.....
It aint a matter of life and death,its a luxury "problem".

We could all live easily withouth these items...Having the luxury of worring about different coticule layers,different manmade hones etc. is our own choise and because we have the freedom to do so. Few people have that luck.

I respect all the different shades of this rather silly hobby,as long as we try to do our very best with simple means. But if the Zen is lost,people got the wrong understanding.

T

 

[tat2Ralfy]

We are talking about razors,hones and strops.....
It aint a matter of life and death,its a luxury "problem".

Unless you happen to make a living selling the said items
Ooops!

Carry on, bwhahahahaha

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[wdwrx]

We are talking about razors,hones and strops.....
It aint a matter of life and death,its a luxury "problem".

Unless you happen to make a living selling the said items
Ooops!

Carry on, bwhahahahaha

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

you took the words right out of my mouth!
For the rest of us, ya, it's just a hobby. Some people seem to make their living out of it. And therein lies the problem, methinks. guys protecting their interests (and image) in an underhanded way. That thread was a classic example.

Torolf said it waaayyy better than I ever could:

fallacious and dishonest argumentative strategies (circular, straw man, and begging the question arguments, to name a few concrete examples) with the sole purpose of putting an uppity upstart in their place. My posting here is to add my sympathy for his situation.

I had to look some of that shit up to be sure i was sure what he was talking about.... I was just left with a vague feeling of unease after reading that exchange in the referenced thread... no way could I put it into words as eloquently as Torolf.
I for one have learned to not tilt that particular wind-mill. If you want a rise, post about how you've dulled the edge on a glass.... some people (whom you just know know better), start acting like they can't wrap their minds around it. There's definately some politics goin' on there.

 

[Smythe]

This is one of the reasons I stay out of “honing” forums.

I read someone “sig-line” witch said “There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, and every single one of them is right!" R. Kipling”…
Talk about sharpening razors and often the discussion goes in nine and sixty different directions.

But to put this into prospective… the original poster in that thread only wanted to touch-up his razor with the least “gear-count” possible (preferably, just one hone). It’s a simple request… like, “how many toilets does he need take a s**t?” (for starters, he’s only has one a$$). But before long folks are suggesting multiple hones as if he wants to get into the sharpening business.
Sure, multiple hones will get the thing sharp… but for just a touch-up, is bordering on the ridiculous.

But what I find humorous is the condescending attitude displayed by some of the “know it all's”, of whom experience should have thought them better… but sadly, it appears they haven’t learned much more than the little they already know… maybe there’s nothing more to learn .

 

[Paul]

Torolf,

It's forgotten. I should have asked for clarification prior to responding:

On another note, seriously, why are still talking about this? :huh:

 

[Bart]

I didn't plan to chime in again at this thread, but having now read that particular thread on SRP, want to extend my sympathies to Tok.

I was given the exact same treatment on SRP, when I had the nerve 2 years ago to share a method for honing a razor from dull to sharp on just a Coticule. It is incredibly frustrating to have your words being misrepresented and thrown back at you, by someone who apparently had a lifetime practice with using fallacies.
In that respect, Tok's first post in this thread was friendlier than I would have formulated it, standing in his shoes.

The problem with SRP is that the big shots over there were caught with their pants down, and they still are every time someone speaks the word "Coticule". They've tried abbreviating it to "Coti", but it doesn't help... They've tried banning a couple of guys, but that didn't help either.

But I was talking about being caught with pants down. I'll elaborate. Over the years, SRP became a very gear driven forum. If a forum is not specifically managed to prevent so from happening, it will eventually become clogged with members that have a very specific agenda. The majority of people that READ forums are in search of information. They might pose a couple of questions. They might even answer a few other peoples' questions, but normally they move on after being served. Nothing wrong with that. A genuine forum's main goal should be to offer support on a particular field. Nonetheless, some visitors stick around. That can be for social reasons, or because they find it rewarding to help newer members out, perhaps they become part of the forum's inner circle, help out with maintaining the website, or conducting research, etc... But there are other reasons why people stay active as well: some guys have commercial reflexes and they discover an easy target-able market in the constant stream of new users. Others develop a gear acquisition disorder, a condition they seek to reinforce by fantasizing about imaginary properties of the gear they hoard. Razors that perform magical shaves, strops that turn "mediocre" edges into stellar ones, hones that that can actually read the word Sheffield on the tang of a razor and refuse to function on any other steel...
Put both groups (the commercially inclined and the self-restraining impaired) together, and you end up with a forum full of myths and fallacies and a distinct lack of critical thinking. Of course, valuable information will still be intermixed. This can go on for a long time, certainly when representatives of both groups are allowed near the forums power buttons. SRP is a sad example of that, in spite the many fine gentlemen who have contributed there over the years, and in some cases still are.
But you can't stand up over there to claim that with a minimum of dexterity, a little practice and a layer of tape someone inexperienced can put and edge on a razor that can rival with any of these guy's edges of 20$/per sharpening. For starters, they've not come up with it themselves (a slight problem), secondly: it's bad for business, and thirdly it inherently mocks all that imaginary bullshit about special hones for Sheffield steel and other fantasies.

That is why you can't make such references on SRP.

There is nothing that can be done, and as I put in my other post, getting all worked up about it does not serve anything or anyone.
I posted in a thread over at Badger and Blade last night, where the atmosphere is in my experience much more open.Someone posed the question "Do you really want to make converts? Why?" . I answered that I couldn't care less. And I meant it. Coticule.be exists for those who manage to find it and happen to share the owners' (Ray, Ralfson, Smythe, and myself) enthusiasm for a no-nonsense approach towards shaving with straight razors in general and sharpening stuff with natural Coticule stones in particular.
It is clear to me that, on SRP, we're treated not much different than the US treats Cuba. (with a boycott) That makes me Fidel Castro or Ché Guevara. If I were sure which one, I could change my avatar.
But I had as much fun over here when we were with 5 members as now we've crossed the 500 mark. So, to paraphrase something that a good friend of mine tattooed on his upper arm: "Screw them all!"

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Bart]

On another note, seriously, why are still talking about this? :huh:

Because conversations about shaving and the related topics are always open on Coticule.be

A review of a shaving forum can be as useful as a review of a shaving soap. Perhaps even more so.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[danjared]

Bart, now I want to see a picture of you with a beret on. Alas, you might need to grow a beard. Actually, I think Che might have had less facial hair than Castro, so you're probably him.

 

[RicTic]

Actually, I think Che might have had less facial hair than Castro, so you're probably him.

Agreed ^

And because he once said to his captors..."I'm Che Guevara and I'm worth more to you alive than dead!"

 

[RicTic]

Unfortunately, that wasn't long before they shot him. :/

 

[Paul]

A review of a shaving forum can be as useful as a review of a shaving soap. Perhaps even more so.

Kind regards,
Bart.

:O

Reasonable people can disagree and all that...

 

[danjared]

Bart, I saw this elsewhere and found it relevant (or at least amusing):

 

[Bart]

Reasonable people can disagree and all that...

Indeed, one can reason with reasonable people.
One can even reason about unreasonable behavior somewhere on an Internet forum.
As I said, I understand Tok's original sentiment all too well and given the circumstances, I even find his post balanced.

I know, not all of the threads/posts look that way, and mostly, the information is valuable, but still, if I hadn´t found this and other sites, I think that I´d have spent even more money on hones and stuff, than I did already.

Let's get on topic then:

Looking to get a single stone for refreshing my straight razor strictly, can I get away with one stone and what would you recommend?

someone says "barber hone", someone else says "Naniwa 12K". Both times good advice.
Then Malacoda mentions the C-word.
Next thing, the thread is moved, I presume from "newbie" section to "honing".
I think it's a coincidence, but I'm often called naive.
Next post, punctual like clock work when the C-word falls, Glen Mercurio:

That is just a myth my friend, you can do the exact same thing on just about any stone that you can shave comfortably off of....and almost every one that you listed

In fact the "One Coticule" honing is becoming more of a myth now too, since most Coticule users are buying two, one to set bevels and one to finish with..

The trick is most people don't like burning up expensive naturals to accomplish it, or wasting time on one synthetic...

(my underlining)
Let's analyze. He says Malacoda's claim is a myth, for the reason that it could be done on other stones as well. While it is not entirely true, neither does such a fact falsifies Malacoda's recommendation for a Coticule.
Than "One Coticule" honing "is becoming a myth" as well, because some people buy more than one. That's the equivalent of saying that I don't fit in one coat because I have more than one. Next he plants the assumption that you need one Coticule to set bevels (that obviously can't be suitable for finishing) and then a finisher (obviously too slow to do bevel work). Weird, I've formally and systematically tested a wide variety of Coticules, and have not found anything to support such a claim. In fact, I've successfully performed the "One Coticule" method (later baptized Unicot) on all of them. Rest assured that Glen is aware of that. Hence his innuendo serves only to defuse Malacoda's endorsement for Coticules. This is no longer about answering the original guy's questions but about some sort of pathetic Coticule vendetta that started 2 years ago.
Next fallacy, "people don't like burning up expensive naturals to accomplish it". It's utter bullocks. Coticules require one slurry to be produced, per razor that is honed. For personal use, they will outlast the owner, even if he has a collection of razors (He still has only one beard to shave). But to an inexperienced audience, that statement seeds 2 thoughts at once: 1. Coticules are expensive and 2. Coticules will wear prematurely if you use them with slurry. Both statements are false.

Then the thread lingers on, the usual "flood the noob with everything he can possibly buy" text is recycled once more, a magical Coticule passes by that only works miraculously on Sheffield steel, and then Tok makes his big mistake... He refers to Coticule.be. :O And he mentions that he occasionally uses a "1000 grit synthetic for the very hard evil mistreated ebay-razors" (my underlining).

Rataliation is prompt:

So what your saying, is with a 1k synthetic and a Coticule, then one Coticule is enough?????

Hmmmmm yeah I think that qualifies as two stones....which is exactly what we said above... whether you use two Coticules or a synthetic and a Coticule that would still be 1+1 = 2 hence that statement that One Coticule honing is becoming more of a myth...

It's always good to repeat a fallacy, that makes it stick better. Tok said "evil mistreated Ebay razors". He would be better off with a 600 grit, but what if you already owned a 1K? (as turned out later in the thread)
Note that the tone of the C-police becomes increasingly derogatory. on a tangent, below that post is an illustration why Coticule.be will never have a thanks button. I hate cheering audience when some poor guy is finished off by a trained bully.

And finally, the guy with the bloody nose, who had the nerve to mention Coticule.be, is shown the right way, namely the 3 subsections on SRP that deal with hones and honing.

You might just learn something about Hones and Honing razors

.(my bold) That is very clear language. And another one that will think twice before making another public recommendation for Coticules on SRP. Or a reference to Coticule.be for that matter. Mission accomplished.

On a side note. According to Google Dashboard, there are 20.837 references to Coticule.be on Badger and Blade. There used to be about the same amount on SRP. Now there are 2.453 left, and most of them are gone, but Google hasn't figured that out yet. I never had a link to here in my signature line on B&B. But I had such a link on my SRP signature-line. I didn't remove it. Someone else did. But putting "banned" under my moniker was too difficult...


Now the sad part of it all is that Coticules are truly great hones. No one ever said that there are no other great hones as well. Not me, before or after I was banned on SRP, not Tok or Malacoda in the discussed thread. But for reasons that have strictly to do with people's EGO, these whetstones are now being denied their true values on the website that is here called the Genesis of straight razor shaving. Isn't that the book that states the world is flat? And didn't the church not had people burned at the stake for stating the opposite?

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Bart]

Bart, I saw this elsewhere and found it relevant (or at least amusing):

I love that!

mustaches rule!

And besides, Coticule edges are way too dull to shave a mustache...

: :

Bart.

 

[rattlerviper]

Well I read through the thread on SRP :thumbdown: Does anyone else think it's odd that a vendor/moderator who's signature says something about being respectful seemed to be anything but?

The behavior in that thread is a clear example of why I asked my account there be deleted long ago. After reading that thread I thought about starting a account there again just to say coticule every time someone asked what stone they should get, I won't lower myself to that though. I'll continue to spend a bit of time on B&B, but the majority of my time is spent here. My post count here is rapidly approaching what 3 years of B&B membership posts. There is a reason for that, and a reason that this is the forum I choose to read daily even if unable to post due to using a android phone.

Tok I am sorry they acted that way towards you when you were just trying to answer a question with helpful honest advice.

 

[Paul]

Bart,

You know that I didn't say they were the genesis of straight razor shaving. I said of wetshaving fora, but that's admittedly possibly inaccurate as it relates to the entire internet. Notice the capitalization of "genesis" is yours. The word as I used it simply means "a coming into being." I'll pass on the religious discussion B) ... It is the original English speaking wetshaving forum, as it was started only after a year long search for information on the internet. That's what I meant...

Cheers, all... enjoy

 

[Smythe]

Yes it’s amusing reading some of the posts over there… that thread in particular.

ZIB for example knows Coticules very well (after all, he is a Coticule vendor), but his post would suggest he doesn’t “understand” Coticules. He also seems a bit confused… you need “the right Coticule” (there is that idiotic statement again)… and he’s not sure if he “was” or “still is” a Coticule vendor (could be an attempt to "conform"). Yet he qualifies himself by saying he handles “hundreds of Coticules”… (now why does that sound familiar?… like another popular honer who qualifies himself by saying he honed more razors than anyone else).

Glen: I put him in the same bag as "what’s his name"... the dude who thinks only 6 out of 1000 Coticules are any good… yes, that fellow. You get into a discussion with him and he “nit picks” the discussion, and often pointing out the obvious (as if you didn’t notice the obvious)… all in an effort to make himself look “smart”… but of course that is the point... he only appears smart if he makes someone else look silly… like a slick “3rd world” politician he is very good at it… wadaminite he’s now a vendor?... how cool is that?... now that explains a lot: .

 

[Woodash]

I will reserve my judgement on SRP for I do not believe this is the place to get into all that.

Correct (IMHO...).