Comparing Shaves From Coticules, Thuringians, and Escher Stones

[Emmanuel]

Ah I see.
Thanks Denny.
Best regards
Emmanuel

 

[tat2Ralfy]

..... keep me outa trouble...

As much as I would like to....... its not my job

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Bart]

I have a small old Thüringer hone in a box. It has the Escher logo (an image of a cup) but not the name Escher. It sits in a little box with hinged lid. In the lid is the typical label, with advice to hone on a natural "slime" of stone mixed with water. I've only used it once, as a finisher on water, but I did shave a couple times in a row with it, in conjunction with a different oticule edges for eaxh shave. The shaves were quite nice. But not as friendly on my skin as the typical Coticule edge. For a quick shave I wouldn't notice. But the second full 3-pass shave, I already noticed the difference.
I planned on trying a more Japanese approach, honing on slurry to give it some time to break down. Both the Thüringer and the Japanese hones are have a fine quartz particles for abrasive medium. Hence it might make sense to raise a bit of slurry, allow it to thicken during the first stages of sharpening and give the particles some time to break down. On my Nakayma that really lends a different feel to the edge, than finishing on water. Both edges shave nice and effortless, but the water finished edge doesn't feel as soft. I wouldn't be surprised to observe a similar effect on the Thüringer, after the "slime" has received it's workout.
But I haven't found the time for further play with the Thüringer lately. The other experiments were performed during the Coticule.be summer reces, so maybe after next August, I'll have more news...

Kind regards,
Bart

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I have a small old Thüringer hone in a box. It has the Escher logo (an image of a cup) but not the name Escher. It sits in a little box with hinged lid. In the lid is the typical label, with advice to hone on a natural "slime" of stone mixed with water.

I had one of those, they sell for a good sum, and found it to be exactly the same as my "genuine thuringian" although with a slightly different box and label

It worked just as my Thuringian, better for me with just water, constantly refreshing every 10 strokes or so. I never tried working the slurry like a Jnat though, I may give that a try?

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[wdwrx]

It's been a while since I've tried shaving off my vintage thuringian. At the time, I felt that it was keener than I was able to achieve with my coticules, but not as forgiving to questionable shaving technique.
I've done serious bevel work with it, and would say that it's faster than my Le Verte (with Le Verte slurry as opposed to slurry raised with a different vein slurry stone), but slower than any of my other coticules, but with patience, still quite capable.
I'm tempted to give it try, but I fear that it will be some time before my current honing testing regime leaves me the opportunity. Plus I've got a Le Petite Blanche due to arrive; I'm sure that'll keep me busy for awhile.

FWIW, (I try not to draw any conclusions) when observed under a microscope, I seem to recall that the thuringian leaves a less textured edge than my typical coti edge. Also, my general impression is that it offers a more gentle cutting action than my coticules.

Dammit Ralfy, now i've gotta lug out the darn Thurri!

Edit: something truly strange has happened to the formatting of my post... And I don't seem to be able to fix it from the edit window.. WTH?:blink:

 

[Bart]

Edit: something truly strange has happened to the formatting of my post... And I don't seem to be able to fix it from the edit window.. WTH?:blink:

I fixed that for you. You had a square parenthese hidden somewhere. That confused the BB-code parser.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks Bart! It just kept getting worse and worse with everything I did.

 

[Smythe]

I have a couple German hones (DroEchers brand, and I am not sure of I can call them Escher or Thüringer or… who knows). Played with then a while back but didn’t get good results so they are gathering dust.
I may give them another chance… maybe I need to “get to know the stone”. But reading this thread I now understand these stones cannot set bevels… If it is correct, then that maybe my problem with these stones… as it appears I have more respect for stones that can cut reasonably fast.

Also from reading this thread, it would appear Thüringer, Escher and others of the type are all the same. But some folks seem to advocate that Eschers are somehow "better" than Thüringern or vintage stones are "better" than newly mined ones… sound familiar?:

 

[Paul]

I have a couple German hones (DroEchers brand, and I am not sure of I can call them Escher or Thüringer or… who knows). Played with then a while back but didn’t get good results so they are gathering dust.
I may give them another chance… maybe I need to “get to know the stone”. But reading this thread I now understand these stones cannot set bevels… If it is correct, then that maybe my problem with these stones… as it appears I have more respect for stones that can cut reasonably fast.

Also from reading this thread, it would appear Thüringer, Escher and others of the type are all the same. But some folks seem to advocate that Eschers are somehow "better" than Thüringern or vintage stones are "better" than newly mined ones… sound familiar?:

That does sound familiar, and I think we need to guard against allowing history to repeat itself.

 

[wdwrx]

That puts me in mind of the so called "Frankonian" hones that Olivia has access to. My understanding is that they are of similar composition to thuringian stones, but, IIRC, reportedly somewhat finer.

For a short time, I'd owned one of Ian's small 4x1 thuringer type hones, and felt that it was very very similar to the vintage thuringer I later found locally. Other than it's size, it's performance was indistinguishable.

 

[Harvitz81]

That puts me in mind of the so called "Frankonian" hones that Olivia has access to. My understanding is that they are of similar composition to thuringian stones, but, IIRC, reportedly somewhat finer.

For a short time, I'd owned one of Ian's small 4x1 thuringer type hones, and felt that it was very very similar to the vintage thuringer I later found locally. Other than it's size, it's performance was indistinguishable.

I own a Frankonian and an Escher so I can chime in on this. I find the escher when used with water after a coticule shows maybe the smallest hint of sharpness increase at the expense of some smoothness. It is really too small a difference to truly notice, but I do think it leaves a touch less smooth edge.

The Frankonian on the other hand actually leaves as smooth an edge as a coticule IME. I also think it leaves a touch sharper edge. I actually have come to prefer it to my escher when I take things past a coticule finish, but to be honest it is all small differences and a coticule edge that is maxed out is really all I'd ever need. Basically if you gave me 3 razors finished on these 3 stones, I would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Now, in terms of whether the Frankonian and an Escher (or vintage Thuringian as I owned one of those as well) are similar composition I can most definitely say they are not. Thuringians are soft stones that range from blue to Grey to Green and produce a grey slurry when raised.

My Frankonian is dark brown and hard as a JNat finisher. It took me an hour or more to lap it (whereas a thuringian takes like 5 minutes). Also, Olivia provides you with a slurry stone and it is basically useless for raising a slurry (I had to resort to my tiny DMT 325 plate) and the slurry produced is dark brown as well. A Thuringian you can easily raise a slurry with a slurry stone of the same composition.

So, in summary, wherever Olivia is getting the Frankonian hones they are most certainly not from the same place thuringians came from. Two completely different types of stones IME.

Sorry for taking this off-topic, but I did include my thoughts on an escher vs. coti above.

 

[BlueDun]

FWIW, (I try not to draw any conclusions) when observed under a microscope, I seem to recall that the thuringian leaves a less textured edge than my typical coti edge.

Chris,

that is an observation I can confirm. I use my microscope on pretty much every edge. Actually, most of my other finishers (SS10k, Ouzuku, Awaseto) leave a straighter and more homogeneous edge by appearance. And the Escher too as far as I recall. I was always amazed that the comparably rougher coti edge performs so well. But I guess that confirms once more that optical appearance and actual shaving performance do not necessarily correlate.
Now I'm curious how this thread further develops. I've been on the lookout for some good tips with my Escher in order to have a reason to dig it out again and start working more seriously.

Cheers
BlueDun

 

[Harvitz81]

Well I just shaved with a razor I bought from Sham on SRP that was finished on an escher. I've been getting used to edges from my Coticules and Frankonian as this one was a little too keen for my liking. If it is true that he finishes on slurry and not water only then that might explain it. When I finish on the escher I use water only and don't get anything this keen.

Another thing to keep in mind is the progression used before the finishing stone. If a Coticule is used for the progression then maybe going to the escher after keeps some of the smoothness from the coticule. On the other hand, if a total synthetic progression is used before the escher, then maybe it can not get that smoothness. I always use a dilucot method for my own honing so maybe that is it.

 

[garyhaywood]

Well I just shaved with a razor I bought from Sham on SRP that was finished on an escher. I've been getting used to edges from my Coticules and Frankonian as this one was a little too keen for my liking. If it is true that he finishes on slurry and not water only then that might explain it. When I finish on the escher I use water only and don't get anything this keen.

Another thing to keep in mind is the progression used before the finishing stone. If a Coticule is used for the progression then maybe going to the escher after keeps some of the smoothness from the coticule. On the other hand, if a total synthetic progression is used before the escher, then maybe it can not get that smoothness. I always use a dilucot method for my own honing so maybe that is it.

you will find that sham uses a differant progression of naturals before the escher. he uses a j-nat before escher. I have tryed escher with slurry and i lost keeness. Unless the slurry was real light i might get away with loosing keeness. On my thury i defanatley had a much less keen edge.with the use of slurry. On the label it says use water. My escher did recomend slurry and it also creates a slight slime very quikly. the thury generates a similar feeling.
gary

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Another thing to keep in mind is the progression used before the finishing stone. If a Coticule is used for the progression then maybe going to the escher after keeps some of the smoothness from the coticule. On the other hand, if a total synthetic progression is used before the escher, then maybe it can not get that smoothness. I always use a dilucot method for my own honing so maybe that is it.

That is absolutely how it is for me, also if I take it through to a blasa/CrOx finish and then back to the Thuringian it smoothes the CrOx edge off nicely

What I have found is that if I Dilucot, the Thuringian takes the place of the Coticule on water nicely, if on the other hand I use synthetics, the Thuringian doesn't seem to have the same capabilities as my Coticules.

And if I take the edge "past" a Coticule finish, on CrOx or a Charnley Forest, the edges retain that slight extra sharpness, and smooth out much the same as they do with a Coticule.

So for me, and I know Gary has found the same, the Thuringian is a nice finisher, however its not as versatile as a Coticule, I still have my Muller one, and intend to try a "Diluthur" with it, and then I will finish on my old Thuringian, I am expecting the edge to be almost the same as a Dilucot edge.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[garyhaywood]

i've noticed alot of guys say the coticule after 4k/8knorton is'nt there best finisher.I find going from coticule from start to finish is 5x smoother than 4k/8k then coti or thury.This is a fact and what i have found. ralfy why don't you finish on 50 laps on light slurry on your thury? let me no how that shaved. use no water to finish. Also do this on a good dilucot edge of coti. then 50 laps on thury with slurry. i don't no why but the edge was not as sharp for me all though it was very very forgiving.
gary

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I will give the slurry a go mate, tbh I dont see it being as good as just water, but its worth a try

As far as the 4/8K goes, I dont get on with it all, even if I use a Coticule to finish, I find I have to use slurry then dilute it through to water, to get a really smooth shave, which to me seems a waste of time, I may as well just do a Dilucot.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[garyhaywood]

As you no i started out with the nortons . Aprox four years ago. If and only if your bang on at 8k level you will get a good shave and then the coticule adds the softness not any more sharpness. The secret is to be shave redy at 8k level. I have had some perfect shaves of the 8k. The dilucot process is a gaurantedd smooth shave if you get there. If you don't you will still get a gentle forgiving shave. Its like any hone if you stick with it it will work. I went back to the nortons and it was'nt long before i thought sod this , and got the coticule back out and never looked back. my first belgium coticule i had i noticed the differance in the shave straight away after using nortons. a good progression for me was bevel set 1k 60 laps 4k 20 8k then 50 bbw light slurry then 50 laps on coti with water. That works well.

gary

 

[Guest]

I bought an Escher as the recommended hone after my Nortons. It never worked. I sold it after a few months. The Nortons will go next.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

a good progression for me was bevel set 1k 60 laps 4k 20 8k then 50 bbw light slurry then 50 laps on coti with water. That works well.

Thanks Gary I will try that, although to be fair I dont hone commercially as you know, and I enjoy the Coticule so much that I never use my Nortons anymore, I like to keep them though as a stand by sort of thing.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)