Comparing Shaves From Coticules, Thuringians, and Escher Stones

[garyhaywood]

i have naniwas i never use them, nortons as you no they not been used for a very long time.the only thing i use is my dmt's 325/600/1200. dilucot on one of my coticules its quiker for me and more consistant. stick to wjhat you no i say.

 

[Bart]

If you really want to make sure you're testing the hone in question and not some other edge properties "shining through" from a previous hone, then you must cut a Unicot-style secondary bevel with the finisher you're trying to assess.

That will give you both the keenness limit it can provide together with edge properties coming from only that hone.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

If you really want to make sure you're testing the hone in question and not some other edge properties "shining through" from a previous hone, then you must cut a Unicot-style secondary bevel with the finisher you're trying to assess.

That will give you both the keenness limit it can provide together with edge properties coming from only that hone.

Kind regards,
Bart.

of course you are absolutely correct, I feel that the Thuringian wont produce and edge as nice as a Coticule, however I have been wrong in the past

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Jens]

I have a vintage boxed Thuringian Celebrated Water Stone.
They are indeed similar to a coticule.
results might vary depending on the razor getting honed and what not.

But in general I find the Thuringian makes an edge slightly sharper & slighty more
crispy then a coticule does.I've experimented with slurry with poor results.
I use it as a finisher after either a dilucot or some kind of synthetic progression.
If synthetic approach (God forbid..) it's often ends with a 10K Naniwa.
Then 10 or 15 laps top on my 1x5 is all that is needed.
More & the edge just gets harsh.

If used after a dilucot & can use somewhat more laps.

The edge in the end is the same IMO, no matter how I take it to the level up beneath Thuri.

 

[jfdupuis]

Hey guys,

I tried my MST stone again last night on my 5/8 Boker King Cutter. I then added about 50 passes on my coticule with water only. The shave was very nice and the edge was extremely sharp, but I felt like the edge wasn't as easy on the skin as when I finish with my coticule. The HHT-5 that I got seemed to provide a bit or a harsher shave than my HHT-3 or 4 that I get from my coticule. It's also possible that my face is just getting sick and tired of the crappy weather we've been getting though. I think I will take the Boker back to my coticule with water only to get that smoothness back.

JF

 

[garyhaywood]

I have a vintage boxed Thuringian Celebrated Water Stone.
They are indeed similar to a coticule.
results might vary depending on the razor getting honed and what not.

But in general I find the Thuringian makes an edge slightly sharper & slighty more
crispy then a coticule does.I've experimented with slurry with poor results.
I use it as a finisher after either a dilucot or some kind of synthetic progression.
If synthetic approach (God forbid..) it's often ends with a 10K Naniwa.
Then 10 or 15 laps top on my 1x5 is all that is needed.
More & the edge just gets harsh.

If used after a dilucot & can use somewhat more laps.

The edge in the end is the same IMO, no matter how I take it to the level up beneath Thuri.

how did you find the shave of the 10k nanuwa? I found the shave of 10 k to be fairly crispy not in a smooth way.

 

[Guest]

The plot thickens. It seems to me that the same people (dis-)like the edges off Thuringian hones who also (dis-)like the edges of diamond spray strops and other abrasive media.

 

[garyhaywood]

I shaved with my crown wing one day the next day same razor differant day, same edge and it did'nt feel as good. Why just may be my skin did'nt take it as well . rest your skin and the shave will feel better.

gary

 

[Jens]

I have a vintage boxed Thuringian Celebrated Water Stone.
They are indeed similar to a coticule.
results might vary depending on the razor getting honed and what not.

But in general I find the Thuringian makes an edge slightly sharper & slighty more
crispy then a coticule does.I've experimented with slurry with poor results.
I use it as a finisher after either a dilucot or some kind of synthetic progression.
If synthetic approach (God forbid..) it's often ends with a 10K Naniwa.
Then 10 or 15 laps top on my 1x5 is all that is needed.
More & the edge just gets harsh.

If used after a dilucot & can use somewhat more laps.

The edge in the end is the same IMO, no matter how I take it to the level up beneath Thuri.

how did you find the shave of the 10k nanuwa? I found the shave of 10 k to be fairly crispy not in a smooth way.

I learned a trick a while back & that is to take it as "far as possible" on the 10K & then rinse it, do a quick lapping (I use DMT 325) & go back & do about 20 laps, as light as possible.
And then give a really good linen/leather strop, pretty much like you do after a coticule finish.
That way the edge of the 10K Superstone is quite comfortable.
Still, both the coticule & Thuringian enhances it, but it is definitely a "shave-ready" edge.
And it's also a very good sort of base.line edge for further finishing experiments.

 

[Jens]

The plot thickens. It seems to me that the same people (dis-)like the edges off Thuringian hones who also (dis-)like the edges of diamond spray strops and other abrasive media.

I really think you are on to something there:thumbup:

 

[garyhaywood]

The plot thickens. It seems to me that the same people (dis-)like the edges off Thuringian hones who also (dis-)like the edges of diamond spray strops and other abrasive media.

I really think you are on to something there:thumbup:

one thing for sure is the 10k naniwa is ideal for boosting keeness if your coticule is'nt there. then finish with coticule works well . This way you still end up with a well honed coticule edge of the hones . Instead of having to finish on paste and end up with some convexing. Any way i'm going of subject here. so most of us feel the thury is a good natural hone , so do i.

gary

 

[DJKELLY]

If you really want to make sure you're testing the hone in question and not some other edge properties "shining through" from a previous hone, then you must cut a Unicot-style secondary bevel with the finisher you're trying to assess.

That will give you both the keenness limit it can provide together with edge properties coming from only that hone.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Right, so if you want to combine edges, don't use the Unicot. Edge combination is a huge topic. All of a sudden I need a nap.

 

[DJKELLY]

I shaved with my crown wing one day the next day same razor differant day, same edge and it did'nt feel as good. Why just may be my skin did'nt take it as well . rest your skin and the shave will feel better.

gary

OK, that's it. I can't stay quiet any longer. Gary, didn't we get a sharper/less friendly edge from the Escher experiment we did with Sham's method of super light slurry and very, very slow strokes across the hone? I believe we took a blade with a dilucot edge, but would have to research my emails to be sure. Neither of us wanted to use it regularly.

I actually believe there IS a correlation to be inferred from the microscopic bevel roughness and the edge condition. Sharp is very hard to define when it comes to performance, especially comfortable performance. That the coticule bevel looks rougher under the microscope suggests to me that the edge is probably not as straight a line as a superfine stone (30k, which I don't have) and the "teeth" it makes may all be extremely sharp, they just don't contact skin and whisker all at the same time.

Maybe, it is as simple as finding your sharpness sweet spot like FloorPizza was suggesting with the cork trick. The coticule seems to me to be less sharp, with a slightly uneven edge but definitely capable of producing a smoother shave than just about any other method. Maybe combinations of edges can improve it, but Robin's thoght makes me think that those that don't like the coticule edge, as is, have a different skin type or can take greater irritation than us wusses.

I am just like everyone else in that I don't think I will ever end the quest for a better shave, but that is what it is, a quest, and the quest is the hobby for me. I want my coticule edge to be effortless and that isn't easy to achieve for me. I always get a close shave, but I have to "push" a bit as Gary says, through the beard. Some days when I have quite a bit of beard, it is easy to get a perfect, effortless shave. When I have less than a full day's growth, it is not so easy. I don't know if it is water retention in the longer whiskers or facial recovery for a longer period or what, but it is definitely a better shave for me the longer I go without one. Maybe longer whiskers are easier to cut, like a longer pencil is easier to break than a 30mm one. It might be related to relative humidity for all I know. Winters are usually very dry. It is definitely a beard preparation question to me as none of my great shavers will do the trick on days it doesn't go perfectly. I am not talking about closeness, but the ease of the edge going through the whisker.

I guess the bottom line for this scattered post is that I don't really think it is possible to get a much sharper edge without sacrificing smoothness or comfort, at least for my skin type. Doesn't mean I will quit trying.

Denny

 

[DJKELLY]

I bought an Escher as the recommended hone after my Nortons. It never worked. I sold it after a few months. The Nortons will go next.

I hear you, Robin.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

The plot thickens. It seems to me that the same people (dis-)like the edges off Thuringian hones who also (dis-)like the edges of diamond spray strops and other abrasive media.

I seem to like the Thuringian edge, when it follows a Coticule, however I dislike the diamond spray strops etc

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Bart]

Allow me to sound like a broken recording with the heart-wrenching sound of a horse beaten till dead.

Sharpening can be defined as the act of (micro)sculpting a keen edge on a steel object.
If we see a well sculpted statue, how many of us are going to attribute the quality of the work to the quality of the artist's chisels?

I know that upon sharpening a razor, I always make a conscious effort to do the best I can. That requires consideration, sometimes tinkering, occasionally a layer of tape t, and always the application of practiced skills. No exact recipes exist, no "add 20 laps of this with 2 drops of that and 30 laps at pressure X and you'll end up with a great edge". How influenced by physics it may be, sharpening remains a craft. An intelligent human effort.

The tools we choose, have only a limited influence on our eventual result. If I sharpen with a Coticule, there are at least a dozen different finishing tactics that I use to get what I want. They don't differ much, but enough to affect the outcome. Also other knowledge and experiences are brought into play: the width of the bevel, things I know about the behavior of the steel of specific brands and models, even on occasion knowing that the person I'm honing for requires a soft edge before anything else. Let me sharpen a razor 10 times with the same tools, and the 3 last edges will be better than the 3 first. Maybe not by much, but ennough to differ.

The bottom line is, that as long as you use tools that are remotely fit for the job, you can get it right. And the more you'll work with a particular tool the more you'll be able to control what it does, the better it will start fitting your hand. I feel sorry for those who think their skills are perfect and whatever left to be desired must be a shortcoming of the tool. Learning never stops.
We can weigh a tool in our hands, and we can describe how it feels, what it does well, what it does reasonably well and what it doesn't do well at all. But even that is restricted to our hands, our cerebrum, our evaluation. To prove the point, here's a Youtube link of a guy who's hands can do something with hammers that mine can't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJmZvifrO9Y

If we really want to honor the Thüringer hones, let's start a thread about the finer points of its use. We have such a thread about the Japanese hones and it became a wonderful resource of useful information. It would have been worthless, had it lost itself in a dogmatic adherence to tool absolutism and "differences" with other equally "absolute" hones.

This also counts for synthetic hones. When used well, they are as capable as natural hones to do a great job. My Chosera 10K provides a significantly different, softer finish when it is used in a slightly glazed state. And it really loves to be used at higher bevel angles. 3 layers of tape on the spine and 3 light licks on the Chosera and you have a completely different result than before. Who knows what a waxed Norton 8K can do? 1000 posts of Internet noise about how hone X compares to hone Y. Utter gear fetishism, but little information on how the artisan craft of honing can be mastered. Or should I say meistered?

Let us not fall into hat pit.

Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

[small]I just wondered how others found the edge[/small]

 

[vgeorge]

[small]Denny, we need you here ... [/small]

 

[Bart]

[small]I just wondered how others found the edge[/small]

I know that. I just felt inclined to point something out, that regardless my broken record status, is too easily forgotten. If we all were to hone 3 razors on the same Thüringer, the same Coticule and the same Naniwa 12k, and had the edges evaluated by a panel of impartial shavers, I have no single doubt that the differences between the edges would be larger between the honers than between the hones. That doesn't mean that some of us would be better honers than others. What I find a perfect edge isn't necessarily the same as what another finds a perfect edge. As we speak, I have 2 razors, freshly honed and test shaved, awaiting shipment. One is a Colibri, finished on a Coticule with water + a few laps on misty slurry. If it were for me, I wouldn't have done it, but Jason, the owner of both razors, has extemely sensitive skin and he likes it better this way. The other one, a Mack, is one of my favorite razors. I wish it were mine. But no matter how nice it can be made to shave my face, Jason is never impressed. He prefers the Colibri. And yes, I have tried different hones. And different techniques. Jason is about to receive his first Coticule (a La Grosse Blanche), and I'm sure that, in time, he will manage to steer the Mack closer to his preferences. He has 3 razors, so he can focus on the finer points.

Carry on regardless : ,

Bart.

 

[DJKELLY]

[small]Denny, we need you here ... [/small]

I have juggled thousands and thousands of hammers this week and the trick is not that hard if the following strict rules are followed. First get a hammer. Make that three hammers. More next week.